Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
“Because mine lines up with Holy Scripture...”
Nope, mine does. And why is your opinion any better than mine?
Oh neat..great post...But I was especially impressed you knew the Truth when it was presented and compared to what you both once knew.. Looks like God had you fully prepared to receive that. It’s a beautiful thing when the Truth reaches our hearts and minds...and we KNOW it is the Truth. But it’s hard to describe for those who have not had those times.
I have those when reading the scriptures...usually searching for something or moving along tying things together as I go and then bingo! The ah-hah moment...not only do you know it is the Truth but you know it is Him showing it to you.
“Let’s call it what it is...It’s not Apostolic tradition...It’s Catholic religion fabrication...”
Nope. Your opinion is just wrong.
Hey! I haven’t seen that little fellow in awhile...always brings a great chuckle when I see him...for when I first came to these threads everyone was in the thick of a debate and up popped this little fellow...I cracked up in laughter and remmeber it well. So funny at a time when everyone was so intense on the subject.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
http://www.catholic.org/clife/advent/story.php?id=31036
“The Lord, coming into his own creation in visible form, was sustained by his own creation which he himself sustains in being. His obedience on the tree of the cross reversed the disobedience at the tree in Eden; the good news of the truth announced by an angel to Mary, a virgin subject to a husband, undid the evil lie that seduced Eve, a virgin espoused to a husband.
As Eve was seduced by the word of an angel and so fled from God after disobeying his word, Mary in her turn was given the good news by the word of an angel, and bore God in obedience to his word. As Eve was seduced into disobedience to God, so Mary was persuaded into obedience to God; thus the Virgin Mary became the advocate of the virgin Eve.”
It makes perfect sense Judith...If you are a biased employee...(and you are when it comes to anything which opposes the teachings of your religion)..and your attitude is anything like it is here on the boards in your workplace...then if I worked with you I would never bring a clients condition to you if it involved anything to so with the catholic faith. Your opinion would be avoided entirely for not wanting to risk upsetting a client.
And that is exactly WHY Catholics have been told not to post in Latin on this forum. Sure looks like Catholics are not engendering trust with their little sneaky attempts to stealth finesse the RF guidelines.
And Catholics complain about non-Catholics behavior. I don't think I've seen anyone violate the directives of the mods like Catholics do with such regular predictability.
....”the basis for determining truth from error is not based upon even WHO it is that is teaching it, “we or an angel from heaven,” but whether it is the same gospel that they had already received – and this gospel is recorded in Scripture..................How do we determine whether a church is teaching correct doctrine or not?
.... The only infallible standard that Scripture says that we have is the Bible...... (Isaiah 8:20; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Matthew 5:18; John 10:35; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 2:25; Galatians 1:6-9).
This is a really great post Cynical Bear....it goes to the heart of all which matters....thank you for posting it.
I don't deal with opinions...I deal with what scriptues says...
Perhaps it's comprehension skills...Or, you just flat out don't believe God...
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Did Mary have labor pains or no??? What's your OPINION???
Lots of tares sown in amongst that wheat .
That is an outright lie narses........GOD brought us eternal life thru His son Jesus's death and ressurection.
Mary has eternal life because she saw God as HER Savior...and was forgiven just as the rest of us.
Furthermore His birth would have been in vain had he not carried out His mission in redeeming man. Without the Ressurection we'd all still be doomed...no matter who his mother was, no matter who crucified Him...there is no life eternal without Christ's resurrection and God Himself that!
iscool: “ Did Mary have labor pains or no??? What’s your OPINION??? “
Labor pains????? How could she have those if Jesus passed through her body like a ray of sunshine or some such nonsense?
Did Mary retain her virginal integrity while giving birth to Jesus?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2602509/posts
Thanks for making that known...It really is quite amazing how Mary kept all these things spoken of her Son for so long. I can see why she would be looking for the time when she thought He should make Himself known.
I had an occcassion where I stepped into my sons life in such a way and oh my did he make it known he knew when and what He was doing....in his time not mine. Like Mary I got a firm rebuke. For me an eyeopener my son was his own man. I’d like to think Mary got the message too...it is and was a prescious moment between mother and son.
Then stop praying to her and believing she's sinless and bestowing upon her the blasphemous title of co-redeemer and handing over to her the office of mediator between God and men.
If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, it's still a fallen creature like the rest of us.
Amen! Great post.
Rome's paganism knows no bounds. Apparently RCs now believe Mary "heals the infirm."
Where are we told that in Scripture?
Why would ANYONE seek healing from Mary, a mortal woman, when God says to pray to Him alone and He alone will answer your prayers.
Rome is a carnal religion.
lolol. Wow. What a telling experience.
And that third place statue didn't make you want to rush right out and become "another Christ," eh?
Maybe that's why so many priests become "another Mary."
First prize.
lolol. Too true.
AMEN!
And no one prays to their deceased parents or implores them to heal them and redeem them and intercede for them with God.
Scripture gives that office to the Triune God alone.
That's basic Christianity 101 and Rome fails the test.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.