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To: 1010RD; SZonian
What constitutes the "true" church and

The true church is Christianity - people, not a building.

Proof that it remained intact throughout history?

LOL, prove that it DIDN'T remain intact 10. Christianity has Jesus' promise that it would remain intact throughout history and that though some would LEAVE it, it would remain intact.

522 posted on 01/13/2011 7:49:00 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla; 1010RD

This is what amazes me.

We’re contending one thing, [mormons claim complete apostasy]. 10 is defending one thing [that’s not what they meant, not one whit of truth left?].

When we offer proof of the mormon claims, 10 turns around and says, “oh really, prove the opposite”.

Really? Christ is a liar?

I tire of these word and spin games.


523 posted on 01/13/2011 8:18:13 AM PST by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: Godzilla; SZonian
The true church is Christianity - people, not a building.

Too vague. By this definition anything is Christianity. While it certainly isn't a building, it isn't people either.

People are Christians. They practice Christianity, but Christianity is a belief system and a way of life. To make Christianity "true" it must be headed by Jesus Christ himself or else it cannot bear his name and be true.

Christianity has Jesus' promise that it would remain intact throughout history and that though some would LEAVE it, it would remain intact.

Overreach on this one. He didn't promise it would remain intact throughout history. That's eisegsis.

The Christian expectation is apostasy at some point and restoration. That's the story of the Bible.

In Noah's day you had universal apostasy. Josaiah as experienced universal apostasy among his people. Jesus encountered it as well. By dictionary definition apostasy is An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion or departure from one's faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian's apostasy from Christianity.

These definitions are important when trying to search out the truth. The LDS definition of apostasy is slightly different. The LDS definition of Apostasy is:

Latter-day Saints believe that apostasy occurs whenever an individual or community rejects the revelations and ordinances of God, changes the gospel of Jesus Christ, or rebels against the commandments of God, thereby losing the blessings of the Holy Ghost and of divine authority.

So you have four conditions that satisfy apostasy for the LDS:

1. Rejection of revelations of God

2. Rejection of the ordinances of God

3. Changes to the gospel of Jesus Christ

4. Rebellion against the commandments of God

#4 most certainly is always happening, but is it complete? Few Christians observe the Sabbath Day who would otherwise strictly adhere to the other Ten Commandments. The Trinity is another example of changes to the gospel of Jesus Christ

Let me continue my research and reading. I haven't finished reading History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: History of Joseph Smith the Prophet By Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts.

I hadn't known this book was available until Szonian and you put me on to it and I was thrilled to find it online. I like going to the source and not just getting the opinions of men. Interpretations get filtered and all that.

I'm not going to read the whole thing for now, but just the chapter starting on page XL called Announcement of the Universal Apostasy

When I'm done I'll post what I've found or have you read it already?

524 posted on 01/14/2011 6:20:34 PM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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