From the article: People frequently lie when asked about religion, perhaps out of a desire to look good and perhaps out of denial. Prominent national surveys such as those by Gallup and others generally show that about 40 percent of those in the U.S. say they attend worship services on any given Sunday, but numerous studies have found that the actual number is much closer to 25 percent.

Hmmm...interesting!

From the article: Beware of calling any faith the “fastest-growing” in any context. Any number of faiths have been called the fastest-growing in the United States or the world, often without any documentation. Salt Lake Tribune reporter Peggy Fletcher Stack wrote a 2006 story debunking the myth that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was the fastest-growing faith in the world and reporting that the Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God and Pentecostal groups were growing faster.

Maybe individual survey responders aren't the only public liars out there!

From the article: Categories are controversial. Mormons consider themselves Christian, but most Christian groups do not.

Yup. Just like fundamentalist Mormons consider themselves Mormon, but the mainstream Mormon group does not.

What are the key underlying issues here?

TOP ISSUE:
In one word, "control."

Control of "image" -- what they deem as "negative coverage on the 10 o'clock news" -- flds encroachment. And then, moved the other way -- toward Christians -- control of the "brand name" to commandeer the "positive coverage on the 10 o'clock news" and especially the international good will extended toward Christians in certain continents and countries!

In both matters, it involves the Mormon top-heavy PR/Marketing department of Lds, Inc, which has become the most authoritative "buck stops here" public face of Mormonism. [The Mormon "prophet" is the most internal authoritative voice; and certainly could wield it publicly...but the Mormon hierarchy is delegating most of the "public" side to its (a) PR dept; and (b) apologists]

The Lds "corporate" facts are thus:
(1) ...in 1923, [Lds] church lawyers found The Holy Grail: a rare, little known, and hardly ever used mode of incorporation known as The Corporation Sole. Virtually unknown in America, and tracing its origins to ancient Roman law, the corporation sole was the way the vast riches of the Holy Catholic Church had been protected under Emperor Constantine. All financial power was vested in one man -in their case the pope, in our case, the prophet.
Source: The Vanishing LDS Church by Alan Rock Waterman

(2) Lds, Inc. doesn't pay a lot of its employees. Most of it is really "slave labor." But they pay the General Authorities -- the ones who really need the $ the least!

You see, Lds general authorities are already usually businessmen in their own right. It's their successful business acumen which has identified them as potential recruits to join the General Authorities. And their business success has to be to some degree that allows them enough freedom to assume a second job/career as a General Authority. Once on board as a General Authority, it usually opens yet a third venue of revenue: Serving as boardmembers for yet other corporations & businesses! Lds general authorities are known for serving on vast number of boards...and the "incestuous" G.A. relationships simply opens up those venues even more!

(3) As such, these businessmen-slash-G.A.s are heavily invested in PR & marketing in their own business efforts -- and carry over the same application to Lds, Inc.!

(4) This is confirmed by Alan Rock Waterman: ...the areas that the corporate Church tends to focus on are, by and large, the same things any corporation lends its attention to: Growth, Image, and Control. Especially damage control to its image. Notice that in the early LDS church, the spokesman for the church was called a Prophet. Today the press is continually quoting a “church spokesman” who turns out to be someone from the Public Relations Department. That is how a corporation works. It is not what we expect from a church that claims Jesus Christ as its head. If Jesus Christ was still the head of this church, He would have his spokesman speak for His church, not some flunky from the PR department whose job it is to act as a buffer to protect the prophet from embarrassment. The Vanishing LDS Church by Alan Rock Waterman

(5) So...given that in an Internet age, the Mormon leadership has become more besieged than ever in having to answer questions -- questions from the media; questions from critics; and questions from its own members, we see the Lds leadership has established a tri-prong approach to dealing with those questions:
* Answering Questions from the media: Lds Spokespeople trump what Lds "prophets" and "apostles" of old elaborated upon. The PR person has the final word! (Even if the statement is coming from a woman -- like Lds spokeswoman Kim Farah! Note: See chart below)
* Answering Questions from the public: Lds apologists trump what Lds general authorities of old elaborated upon. The apologist has the contemporary word -- and oft' the only word!
* Answering Questions from their own Lds members: According to Salt Lake Tribune columnist Robert Kirby, a Mormon, who was present when a world-wide circular letter was read at the Oct. 24, 2010 service, Kirby said with only partial tongue-in-cheek: "According to the First Presidency’s letter, members with real doctrinal concerns were to seek the counsel of our local leaders — stake president, bishop, Scoutmaster, building custodian, etc." Why?

Well, per Kirby: "The letter...told/counseled rank-and-file Mormons to stop pestering church headquarters for clarification of church doctrine. Apparently some members get so stressed about the finer points of doctrine that they’ll fire off a letter asking for the final word. Church HQ can’t handle the demand... Source for both quotes: Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me

So, you can see what kind of trouble the Mormon leadership is in if they are delegating doctrinal questions to "scoutmasters" and "church janitors" -- coupled with Paragon Defender's links to unofficial Mormon apologist Web sites!!! And when see female spokespeople being able to trump what generations of Lds general authorities said about the White Horse prophesy, well, all I can say is: We've entered a whole new era of Mormondom!!! [Note: Details of all of this is covered & documented in chart & explanations that follow below]

Who Trumps Who? Chart on Who is Really's Runnin' the Mormon Church!

[NOTE: Documentation for chart is found in linkages below the chart!]

Movers & Shakers in the Mormon church:	(What do they do?)	Give me Examples [Links found below chart]
What do Lds "prophets" do?	(They supposedly "prophesy")	Joseph Smith & others on 'White Horse prophesy'
What do Lds "apostles" do?	(They also @ times "prophesy")	Orson Hyde, Jedediah Grant, Orson Whitney
How oft' don't Lds "prophets" prophesy?	(@ "Bible-level" anyway: Most - Never!)	5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 13th-->16th Lds "prophets"
What do Lds PR "spokespeople" do?	(They "officialize" or "re-officialize" spin statements)	Lds spokeswoman Kim Farah & Lds spokesman Dale Bills
What does Lds "First Presidency" do re: theology questions?	(They delegate to local bishops & maybe even the local janitors!)	Oct 24 2010 letter from Lds "First Presidency" circulated to be read worldwide
Who do FR Lds apologists sometimes look to as ultimate authorities?	(PR spokespeople & Lds apologists)	Freepers Restornu re: Kim Farah; Normandy re: Dale Bills; Paragon Defender re: Lds apologists
What do Lds apologists do?	(They apologize for what their previous leaders say -- "apologize" as in the contemporary meaning - not the historical meaning)	Dr. Gregory L. Smith going to extreme spin to explain why Lds leaders lied

Links for Examples above:
Example #1: See Lds Church Issues Statement on Rammell [See post #12 by Reaganaut]

Example #2: See Thread: Text Of The Nauvoo Expositor That Got Joe And Hyrum Killed [See post #134 by MHGinTN for Lds general authority quotes]

Example #3: This is an "example" from silence! No "Bible-level" "prophecies" were issued by the 5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 15th or 16th Lds "prophets!" Even when you add in the supposed "single" "revelations" made by the 4th, 6th, and 12th Lds "prophets," what exactly did those "revelations" entail? To summarize them: (1) "Cut back on the new extra wives" [Lds 4th "prophet"] (2) "I'm 92...my son and his wife have just died...I'm in ill health...and I had a dream about seeing dead people...go dunk more dead people!" [Lds 6th "prophet" -- what is now "D&C 138"] and (3) "Don't discriminate against blacks." [Lds "12th" "prophet"...What? It took a 1978 "revelation" for Mormons to finally comprehend that? Wow! Good thing to know that Mormons are "in" on the "cutting edge" of things...maybe Kimball got that "revelation" by cosmic snail mail or something]

Example #4a: See Lds Church Issues Statement on Rammell [See article statement by Lds spokeswoman Kim Farah -- showing proof once and for all that even an Lds female spokeswoman carries more weight than gobs of statements made by Lds "prophets" & general authorities over several generations! Compare Kim's statement to Reaganaut's quotes in post #12!]

Example #4b: See reference to Lds spokesman Dale Bills by this Lds poster: I’m just explaining that Jesus being married isn’t an official doctrine of the LDS church. This issue came up a few years ago when the Da Vinci Code was published. Dale Bills, a spokesman for the church said, “The belief that Christ was married has never been official church doctrine. It is neither sanctioned nor taught by the church. While it is true that a few church leaders in the mid-1800s expressed their opinions on the matter, it was not then, and is not now, church doctrine.” [Normandy, Lds poster, Dec. 2, 2010] Source: Lds PR Spokesman are the True 'Final Filters' of the Mormon Church [Note how FREEPER Lds poster Normandy cites Lds spokesman Dale Bills in post #139 as having the "final word"]

Examples #5: See Quit pestering us, church leaders tell membership in letter and Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me

Example #6a: (Restornu, thread poster of Lds Church Issues Statement on Rammell )

Example #6b: (Normandy, poster Lds PR Spokesman are the True 'Final Filters' of the Mormon Church )

Example #6c: (Paragon Defender w/his legion of 2010 spam linkage posts)

Example #7: Lds apologist Gregory L. Smith: Polygamy, Prophets, and Prevarication

I’m out of popcorn and I’m snowed in for a few days, so I guess I’ll take a raincheck on this one.

I’m out of popcorn and I’m snowed in for a few days, so I guess I’ll take a raincheck on this one.

Well...being out of popcorn might be reason enough...but I thought being snowed in would actually lead to an opposite reaction...doncha now have more "cave" time on your hands?

WOW

a WOMAN is calling the shots ...

has the final word...

Joey Smith and Briggie Young et all must be rolling over in their graves...

Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Some of them claim being some sort of special witness to you as being supposedly former Mormons. So someone who is an ex-member of any organization would never have an axe to grind or have reason to try to justify their actions by any means? Perhaps not but perhaps so. The LDS Church gains members from other denominations as well as others faiths all the time. This doesn't make them an expert on anything and you certainly won't hear them attacking their forner Church.

Frequently they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, then quote and straw man attack that. Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you, the seeker of truth out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address or answer our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you? They often state that these sites provide no answer. They just don't want you looking. It is as simple as that.

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

Seekers of the Truth, read the Bible God’s Word.

Sigh image

Click on the kitty.

I have posted this before, but here is some research I did on how the LDS have finessed their membership numbers. Also, if you don’t go through the name removal process (easier now but it used to be quite the problem), then they still count you as a member.

Actual numbers are hard to come by, since the LDS does not release the numbers of those who have left. Additionally, their convert numbers are not necessarily accurate since the report each April, the previous years numbers and by their own admission, convert retention rate past one year is less than 50%.

The 0% growth rate has been confirmed by someone in LDS headquaters, who stated that their only real growth is those born into the church.

There is also some question as to if those whose names are removed are still counted in the numbers, because their records are changed to “non-member” rather than destroyed.

Also, it has been said that “inactives” are not removed from the roles until after they would have been 110, regardless of date of death.

OTOH, Evangelical churches and ministries are reporting a large increase in those who are claiming to leave the LDS for a relationship with Jesus Christ. One Evangelical pastor I know in Utah states his congregation is almost 40% ex-LDS.

Other sites, like ex-mormon.org also show an increase in those leaving.

How the LDS finesses their numbers can be easily seen by how they have historically reported their membership numbers at General Conference.

They used to include number of deaths of members. They no longer do so.

They used to separate converts and BIC baptisms, they do not, which makes me question how many “converts” were actually Born LDS.

They used to have a separate category for the baptisms of “children of record”, that has disappeared. Some have speculated that they are now lumped together with converts.
Regarding the number of stakes/wards, I have read that they reorganize and consolidate stakes and call that a new stake. Also the numbers required for a ward/stake have decreased, so it looks like an increase. They have also closed a few missions (consolidated) but add the new mission to the old number.

The finessing of numbers has made it appear that the church is still growing, but outside sources tell another story, and now they are at least admitting it.

1974 -Statistical Report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c57f61cb2b86b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church Units
*
Number of Stakes of Zion at the Close of 1974 675
*
Number of Wards 4,756
*
Number of Independent Branches in Stakes 1,195
*
Total Wards and Independent Branches in Stakes at the Close of the Year 5,951
*
Number of Mission Branches at the Close of the Year 1,822
*
Number of Full-time Missions at the End of the Year 113
Church Membership, December 31, 1974
*
In the Stakes 2,960,143
*
In the Missions 425,766
*
Total Membership 3,385,909
Church Growth During 1974
*
Children Blessed in Stakes and Missions 72,717
*
Children of Record Baptized in Stakes and Missions 47,234
*
Converts Baptized in Stakes and Missions 69,018

1985 - Statistical report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=81edef960417b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church Units
*
Number of stakes 1,582
*
Number of districts 352
*
Number of missions 188
*
Number of wards 10,168
*
Number of branches in stakes 2,766
*
Number of branches in missions 2,071
*
Number of sovereign countries with organized wards or branches 95
*
Number of territories, colonies, and possessions with organized wards or branches 20
(These statistics reflect an increase of 75 stakes and 542 wards and branches during 1985.)
Church Membership
*
Total membership at the close of 1985 5,920,000
Church Growth during 1985
*
Increase in children of Record 95,000
*
Children of record baptized 70,000
*
Converts baptized 197,640

1996 - Statistical Report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=eda6dbdcc370c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church units
*
Stakes 2,296
*
Districts 671
*
Missions 309
*
Wards and branches 23,528
These wards and branches are in 140 nations and in 21 territories and possessions.
Church membership
*
Total membership 9,694,549
*
Eight-year-olds baptized during 1996 81,017
*
Converts baptized during 1996 321,385

2007 - Statistical Report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=4ff1558fcc599110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church Units
Stakes 2,790
Missions 348
Districts 618
Wards and Branches 27,827
Church Membership
Total Church Membership 13,193,999
Increase in Children of Record 93,698
Converts Baptized 279,218

Wow, propaganda defender, you post your spam and it isn’t even a direct LDS article.

I think I would like you better if you posted your own thoughts, but the links you post are great for showing how Mormonism is a sick joke, so thanks!

Example #6c: (Paragon Defender w/his legion of 2010 spam linkage posts)

Seekers of Truth -

Does this spam answer any of the points made in the lead article of the thread - no, it continues to be an example of it.

Great summary Colofornian!

What he said! Great summary of the EARTHLY LDS corporation that pretends to be a Christian Church!

It ain’t.

PD,

Thank you for confirming my summary in post #2!

You'll notice that at the end of my post -- "Example: 6c" -- which mentions you by name, you were the only one not to get an actual link! Why? Well, I figured you'd be along to show us exactly what I referenced -- that you exemplify trusting in unofficial Lds apologists to be the "living face" of answering questions from the public.

Strange...that the supposed "Lord's church" -- which for 180 years has stressed priesthood this and authority that...should suddenly focus on unofficial apologist this and unofficial fly-by-night organization that!

Your spam linkages continually point out to the world that at least on external matters -- your apologists now trump the Mormon hierarchy as THE authoritative interface!

Boy, how times have changed. I can remember conversing with Mormons on AOL in some chat rooms once upon a time. Boy, how so many of them were sooooo...cautionary to even pronounce "official" viewpoints of what did or did not represent THE position on a subject.

I would constantly get posters referring me to the Lds church; they were so fearful that either they would misrepresent the church or that "big brother" Lds Inc. was watching!

Now...the Mormon church doesn't want those queries.

As I mentioned in post #2, the Oct. 24, 2010 worldwide circular letter proves they don't even want them from internal members!

Now you will likely notice the "you never address or answer our points" posts pop up as usual.

That's OK...we understand you are simply a chip off the 180-year-old block! [And the block doesn't like to answer questions, either! See Quit pestering us, church leaders tell membership in letter and Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me]

BTW, what I didn't mention in the chart re: exactly what those Lds "apostles" like Orson Hyde, Jedediah Grant, and Orson Whitney were "revelating" about -- was the Mormon "revelation" that Jesus was married!

If you look for MHGinTN's name being referenced in post #2, you'll see the link where he cited Hyde & Grant in this regard.

That's where Lds poster Normandy stepped in -- and rather than let Lds apostles speak for themselves -- Normandy cited Lds spokesman Dale Bills has having the final filtered authoritative response!

Could you imagine the apostle Paul making a few statements on some key theological point...and then enters off of stage left, a man-in-a-tie with an ID badge bumping the apostle out of the way and saying, "Excuse me, what Paul really meant was..." -- and the WHOLE of the church listens to the PR dude vs. Paul as to what's authoritative?

Well, that's the Morg -- the Mormon Corporate Org -- in a nutshell!

But isn’t that exactly what lds do to Jesus Christ?

Kill ‘em ALL!

Let GOD sort ‘em out!

How DARE you tie all this together so folks won't have to dig the facts out of a bunch of various official and non-officials links!

THIS just shows us ALL how OBSESSED you are with the ONLY church on Earth that has ANY authority whatsoever!

--MormonDude(Did I forget to say you're a Hateful BIGOT, too?)

I see you found where you stored your List-o-Links®. I was being to think you were over being shown how lame they are are. Guess I was wrong...

How to make it all add up

Disputed statistics

Who Trumps Who? Chart on Who is Really's Runnin' the Mormon Church!