Posted on 01/13/2011 3:36:43 PM PST by wmfights
That much is true.
[...] the Church has taught baptismal regeneration for 2,000 years.
That much... not necessarily.
think about what you are saying! the pillar of truth was apostate from 95ad until the 16th century!
That presumes the Roman church was indeed the "Pillar of Truth." That cannot be true.
Oh, but it does! You seem to forget our place. Gentiles were grafted into the Branch. The covenants belong to Israel.
Ariel has been put under a spirit of deep sleep - a permanent vegetative state.
So above, so below.
“that much...not necessarily” ok, if that’s true, you sholud be able to provide some names of leaders of this church before the 16th century that didn’t teach baptismal regeneration. thanks!
Abraham is our father in faith. the promise is to all believers, not the blood decendants. the jewish nation was a type of the church in the OT, now that Jesus has come, the promise is for Jew or Gentile, if they will believe in Christ!
I'm not familiar with Dominionism. Can you explain?
>>if we don’t have baptism right, we don’t have the Scriptures right!<<
I am not saying baptism isn’t necessary as I wouldn’t say proclamation of our belief in Jesus isn’t necessary. Remember “believe in your heart and proclaim with your mouth”. If we don’t have the outward signs of an inward change it probably didn’t happen inwardly. Just as “proclaiming” is an acknowledgment so is water baptism. The actual “saving” and “washing of sins by the Holy Spirit” has already happened.
We must be careful that we don’t insinuate that by “doing something” we earn part of our salvation. Even the outward practice of Baptism can be a sinful practice if it is only done for show with no inward repentance and submission to Jesus as Lord and Savior just as their will be some who say Lord Lord will not be saved.
>>I’m not familiar with Dominionism. Can you explain?<<
Dominionism is the belief that the Church must, through evangelism, convert the entire world and that the world must be under Biblical law before the return of Jesus can happen. In other words, the Church must have Dominion over the entire world before the second coming of Jesus.
TRUE. But the Covenants belong to the blood descendants. We are adopted. If YHWH will not keep His promise to the blood children, what makes you believe He will keep His word to you?
the jewish nation was a type of the church in the OT, now that Jesus has come, the promise is for Jew or Gentile, if they will believe in Christ!
So all the promises - Unequivocal declarations - made to Israel are just null and void?
In another post, you said something to the effect that the Roman church MUST be the true Church because of its history - that God would not have let an apostate church stand for all those years... Now, at the same time, you seem to be just FINE with that exact same circumstance happening to Israel.
“we must be careful that we don’t insinuate that by “doing something” we earn part of our salvation” Amen, you are absolutely correct, salvation is by grace alone, no one can do anything to earn it, it is a gift! i know you agree. the question is is baptism a “work” it is not, no one can baptize themself, it is not a work. the Church ( the Body of Christ on earth ) with the authority of Jesus passed down for 2,000 by laying on of hands ( apostolic succession ) baptizes individuals adding them to the Church. what clearer picture of this is infant baptism. the baby can’t do any work, yet we know from the Apostolic Church Fathers, the Apostles baptized infants. this is the orthodox Christian belief for 2,000 years. you seem to believe by your post that one earns salvation by having inward repentence and submitting to Jesus as Lord and Savior, i submit that is not the case.
I do not subscribe to the idea that the Romish church's history is valid, so I need to prove nothing more.
the promises were made to decendants of Abraham in faith, not blood. God will keep His promises, we need to understand the promises correctly. remember OT = types and shadows. NT = the real thing.
all promises made to Israel are void? No! But the Church is the new real Israel of God!
If by “Roman” Church you mean the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church you are correct. The Church will stand from Peter to right to the end when the Church will be overcome and the world will rejoice! God preserved Israel in the OT as a type of the Church, but once the Church was founded and the great commission given to it, God was finished with literal Israel, but not the Jewish people, as some have converted to belief in Christ all thru the centuries. I don’t understand those who believe God preserved Israel all thru the OT, but even with the sending of the Holy Spirit, the Church went apostate right after the Apostles fell asleep! Someone actually accused the Bishops of Nicea of being bought off by Constantine, by paying their way to Nicea!
>>you seem to believe by your post that one earns salvation by having inward repentence and submitting to Jesus as Lord and Savior, i submit that is not the case.<<
You cannot “repent” of your sins unless you have first accepted Jesus in your heart. It is the Spirit of God within you that gives the power to repent. You can’t even accept Jesus unless the Spirit of God draws you. “lest anyone boast”. It’s all Gods doing.
I follow. I have always thought that was the final position in Amillenialism.
You would have to really twist The Revelation of Jesus Christ to support that idea.
fair enough, don’t cite any “romish” historians. cite protestants, or muslim, or unbelievers, history is history. it would tell me something if i can’t trace my church history back to the apostles. i know LDS can only go back to the 18th century, JW the same, etc. the true CHURCH has been here for 2,000 years!
agreed, the Holy Spirit will convict you of sin and draw you, faith is a gift. Salvation is only contained in the Body of Christ, because that Body has died already and will live forever! How do get our sins washed away and get added to the Body? The Bible and Church agree, thru Baptism. The grace received at Baptism is the forgiveness of sins and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Again, no one has ever, or can ever, baptize themself.
So what? The promise has always been by faith... ALWAYS.
God will keep His promises, we need to understand the promises correctly. remember OT = types and shadows. NT = the real thing.
I disagree completely. Replacement theory nonsense.
The Old Covenant is the foundation. With out it, there can be no discernment of the New Covenant.
The Church will stand from Peter to right to the end when the Church will be overcome and the world will rejoice!
Yep... when it is thrown into the fire.
God was finished with literal Israel, but not the Jewish people, as some have converted to belief in Christ all thru the centuries.
Christ will not return until Israel (nationally) says: "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!" That means, with no doubt, that YHWH is not done with Israel. In fact YHWH has proclaimed that as long as there are heavens and earth, He will *not* forget His people, nor will he ever forget Jerusalem, where He has vowed to live, among His people forever.
I don’t understand those who believe God preserved Israel all thru the OT, but even with the sending of the Holy Spirit, the Church went apostate right after the Apostles fell asleep! Someone actually accused the Bishops of Nicea of being bought off by Constantine, by paying their way to Nicea!
The Spirit is sent to each saint, individually.
And the Church did not "go apostate". The Roman church did... In order that they might believe the lie.
Not necessarily. Some had the Baptism of fire before the water (Paul), some received baptism, but did not receive the fire... and had to be baptized again. It is the receiving of the Spirit that is the efficacious part, IMHO.
the promise has always been by faith... well if it is by “faith”, it can’t be of “blood”
the old covenant was God would send a sacrifice for sin ( His Son ) into the world, the new covenant is belief in that Son and His Sacrifice.
“thrown into the fire” The Church will be thrown into the lake of fire? That’s blasphemy.
The Church is Israel, they are the only ones who will say “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord”
believe the lie? what “lie” might that be?
>> “The Church is Israel” <<
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No, the church is not Israel; Israel will go through the tribulation, but the church will not; they will return at the end of the trib.
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