Posted on 01/15/2011 4:15:53 PM PST by Colofornian
SNIP
With this in mind, perhaps we can better appreciate why Joseph Smith stated simply: Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none (History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., ed. B.H. Roberts (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 2:52).
While we seek to make friends and build bridges of understanding with persons of other faiths where possible, we do not court favor, nor do we compromise one whit on what we believe. Some doctrines, like the doctrine of only true and living church (D&C 1:30), by their very nature, arouse antagonism from those of other faiths. Would it not be wise to avoid or at least downplay such divisive points? Perhaps, some say, we should consider focusing on matters we have in common and put aside, for the time being, the distinctive teachings of the Restoration. Elder Boyd K. Packer declared: If we thought only in terms of diplomacy or popularity, surely we should change our course. But we must hold tightly to it even though some turn away. . . . It is not an easy thing for us to defend the position that bothers so many others..."
SNIP
...Why is it that so many people throughout the world write scathing books, deliver biting addresses, and prepare vicious videos denouncing the Book of Mormon? What is it about black words on a white page, all of which are uplifting and edifying, that invite men and women to come unto Christ and be perfected in Him, that would arouse such bitter antagonism?
SNIP
(Excerpt) Read more at byui.edu ...
So who does this Lds leader concede is "divisive?" (The Mormon church)
And why? 'Cause their "doctrine" is that the Lds church is the "only true and living church" -- thereby stating (along with other clearcut conclusions) that the Lds believe THEY are the "only" true church on the face of the earth...and the rest, by implication, are "false" and "dead."
From the presentation: It is not an easy thing for us to defend the position that bothers so many others..." (Elder Boyd K. Packer, Lds general authority)
Well, Packer concedes exactly why Lds FREEPERS are silent on this point: It's simply not easy to defend the ground Joseph Smith & Smith's disciples have staked out!
Besides, what contemporary Mormons really want to be viewed as so exclusive and intolerant toward all other churches and their worshipers there?
What Mormon wants to be classified as "bigoted" 'cause they openly judge Christians based upon what church they attend?
(Well, thank you for asking this question, Mr. Millet.)
Why indeed is the Book of Mormon so protagonistic?
Well, it came to pass that there were exceeding ways! (I'll stop at three!)
(1) Mitt Romney's Lds ancestor -- Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt admitted that: "The Book of Mormon must be either true or false. ... If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep laid, impositions ever palmed upon the world... (Introduction to Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, pp. 124-125).
I mean, that answer alone should suffice for Millet as to why its drawn such a provocative reaction!
But I'll list a few other reasons as well:
(2) If I was to...
* ...heavily plagiarize Biblical phrases from the Bible without credit -- even copying 11 word-for-word chapters from the Bible -- all so that when somebody read my stories I added to my "own version" of "scriptures" it'd give it a sense of "credibility," do you think such plagiarism of the most popular book in the history of the world would gain a standing ovation?
* ...heavily borrow from the Bible even narratives -- and just "change out" the character involved -- do you think that would cause on "encore" call from the audience?
What do I mean re the first asterisk above? An estimated 17,000+ words (26+ pages) of [KJV] ...material...either verbatim quotations of the Bible, or advance revelations of what would be written later, all in 1611 King James wording found its way into the Book of Mormon. Source: Facts & Feelings: Evaluating the Book of Mormon
[Added note: Well, I guess that shows Joseph Smith knew how to "cut & paste" back in his day, too...When I open up my Book of Mormon to 2 Nephi 24, yes, it says, for example "Compare Isaiah 14" -- but it doesn't say, "lifted word for word" from Isaiah 14!]
As for the second asterisk above, what character of the Bible did Joseph Smith "rip off" to pull into his Book of Mormon?
Well, read the New Testament account of Paul (like the book of Acts) and then compare it to the character of "Alma" in the book of Mosiah -- Mosiah chapter 27 -- which was supposedly ... per Smith, written between B.C. 100 and 92!
Bill Hearn covered the overlaps in his online pamphlet, A Reply to a Mormon. Go to A Reply to a Mormon and scroll down to pp. 33-34:
"Old Testament Book of Mormon characters were modeled after New Testament persons. Note comparison between Alma and Paul (Mosiah 27):
a.Both tried to "destroy the church" before their conversion.
b. Both were on a "mission of persecution" the day they were converted.
c. In both cases, those "present fell to earth."
d. In both cases, a voice spoke which others could not understand.
e. Both were asked by the voice why they were fighting against the work of God.
f. Both were helpless and "had to be helped by their friends."
g. Both fasted and prayed as a result.
h. Both preached after being converted.
i. Both worked with their hands to support their ministeries.
j. Both healed a crippled man.
k. Both "were put into prison."
l. Both prayed in prison.
m.Both experienced an earthquake while in prison.
n. In both cases, "the prisoner's bonds were loosed."
o. Both taught the same doctrines. For example:
(*) Faith, hope and charity (Alma 7:24; I Corinthians 13:13).
(*) The power of God unto salvation (Alma 15:6; Romans 1:16).
(*) Without God in the world (Alma 41:11; Ephesians 2:12).
(3) While Joseph Smith copied the apostle Paul to create the Alma character -- even copying from Eph. 2:12 -- he directly militated vs. what Paul said was crucial to our salvation per Eph. 2:8-10:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Simply stated...
* Mormonism has turned a "GIFT" into that which you have to earn!
* Secondly, it has bastardized the word "grace" -- since the very word means "gift!"
* Thirdly, note the order carefully here: God's gift of grace is the mechanism of salvation -- ["saved" is a past tense or present tense word...which Mormons are extremely uncomfortable with since they push "salvation" into the future!] This grace is accessed through faith in the dying & resurrected Christ. Paul says if "works" were the way, WE could boast about it -- 'cause these works are what we do. Yes, we do good works -- but we ourselves are God's worksmanship who created us (& then re-created us via being born from above) "unto good works." When Jesus was asked point blank: 28Then said they unto him, What shall WE do, that WE might work the works of God? (John 6:28) -- Jesus set the person straight: 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work OF GOD, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)
Why do Mormons have such a problem comprehending simple English -- that the works we do is credited and attributed to "the work of God" beyond us?
In a word, pride. The Mormon "gospel" appeals to man's pride...the "do it yourself" "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" approach.
But, really, the blame lies first with Joseph Smith, whom Mormons have believed.
Smith altered the Biblical gospel by claiming in the Book of Mormon that the mainstream teaching for almost 1,000 years in the Americas was a doctrine of the gift of grace only coming AFTER we fulfilled God's legalistic checklist. He said before grace kicked in, we needed to:
* Do "all you can do" (2 Nephi 25:23, supposedly almost 600 years before Christ)
* Do "works" (Helaman 12:24, supposedly 6 B.C.)
* "Deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind, and strength," (Moroni 10:32, supposedly written 421 A.D.)
If you did all this, Smith said, you thereby would "earn" grace -- thereby turning the meaning of both "grace" and "gift" on its head!
Anybody failing of doing "all they can do" (emotionally, physically, spiritually, relationally)...or not doing whatever "works" are required...or failing to love God "with all your might, mind, and strength"...or not denying yourselves of "ALL ungodliness"... sorry...Mormon grace doesn't kick in for you!
...You simply, per Smith's Book of Mormon, are not eligible for God's grace! [I've quoted those BoM verses @ the end of this post so people can read them themselves!]
Since rarely do people heal themselves to go to see the physician to get well, Mormons have it all turned around!!!
Clearly, Joseph Smith did not read or agree with Jesus' words in Matthew 5:31-32:
31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Jesus came for us sinners. For those who need healing from the GREAT PHYSICIAN. He didn't come for the self-righteous -- those who were so perfected that they already were doing "all they" could do...and were already loving God with ALL their might, mind, and strength...and were already denying ALL aspects of ungodliness!
BoM anti-grace passages:
* 2 Nephi 25:23: ...ye are saved by grace, AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO." (2 Nephi 25:23)
* Helaman 12:24: "...may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their WORKS." (Helaman 12:24)
* Moroni 10:32: Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
IB4PDSPAM
IBPD!
IB4PDSPAMLINKSFROMUNOFFICIALSOURCES!!!
Under the direction of Jesus Christ, the priesthood and the Church were restored through His servants.
The Restoration dispelled the darkness of the Apostasy. Priesthood authority was restored.
Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord organized His Church again upon the earth so that the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel could be correctly administered in order to help people come unto Christ.President Gordon B. Hinckley also bore witness that the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored:
This is the restored Church of Jesus Christ. . . . We testify that the heavens have been opened, that the curtains have been parted, that God has spoken, and that Jesus Christ has manifested Himself, followed by a bestowal of divine authority.Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of this work, and it is built upon a foundation of . . . apostles and prophets (Ephesians 2:20) (in Conference Report,
Oct. 2002, 87; or Ensign, Nov. 2002, 81).
Yawn, roll eyes, been addressed a 1000 times.....place marker
ib4pd
Bingo!
That's just it! Mormonism isn't Christianity!
Take away the Book of Mormon, said their general authority B.H. Roberts, and you don't have Mormonism. A very true statement!.
Roberts, BTW, was a Democrat, who was denied holding a Congressional office in 1898 because he had married yet a third simultaneous wife in the early 1890s (AFTER the manifesto supposedly cutting back polygamy).
I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otherThis is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is wellI am well enough off. I then said to my mother,
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
What they cannot defend is their OWN Leader's words and their OWN prophet's TEACHINGS!
Hateful bigot you KNOW that's a LIE!!
Take away our beloved Book of MORMON and We sail on, unperturbed!
There ain't NONE of our doctrine found in it and there ain't none of our secr SACRED Temple Rites® found in it.
--MormonDude(So THERE!)
If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.
They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.
They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.
Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.
You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.
Some of them claim being some sort of special witness to you as being supposedly former Mormons. So someone who is an ex-member of any organization would never have an axe to grind or have reason to try to justify their actions by any means? Perhaps not but perhaps so. The LDS Church gains members from other denominations as well as others faiths all the time. This doesn't make them an expert on anything and you certainly won't hear them attacking their former Church.
Frequently they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.
After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.
The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, quote and straw man attack that. Almost without fail you will see examples of this following this post.
Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think. So again, seek the truth. They aren't providing it. Use your God-given brain and discernment.
Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:
http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/
Now you will likely notice the "you never address or answer our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.
Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you? They often state that these sites provide no answer. They just don't want you looking. It is as simple as that.
Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.
I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.
1. Untrue
2. Proven false
3. Disclaimers that say, "Don't look to US for truth!"
PD likes his one post, just the way it is.
He is the eternal optimist, digging thru the manure pile at the stable, saying that there 'surely must be a pony in here somewhere."
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12
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FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.
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The Bible dictionary says that God is The Supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22-23).
Mormons believe that these three godsseparate in personality {but}. . . united as one in purpose, in plan, and in all the attributes of perfection (Mormon Doctrine, p. 317)are the partnership which rules the universe, with God the Eternal Father the controlling and governing power. LDS Apostle James E. Talmage states it this way: These constitute the Holy Trinity, comprising three physically separate and distinct individuals, who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens (Jesus the Christ, p. 32).
This belief is distinct from the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which generally maintains that they are three persons but one in essence. All three members of the Godhead are eternal and equally divine, but play somewhat different roles.
(From MORMON.wiki ---> http://www.mormonwiki.com/Godhead ) Move along: no agenda here...
Our Heavenly Father, also called Elohim, stands in the exalted position above all beings.
However, Joseph Smith says that . . . he is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . .If you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in formlike yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, form, and image of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another (Documentary History of the Church, p. 305).
Yup; the same source as above http://www.mormonwiki.com/Godhead
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