The Evidence of Things Not Seen [MORMON - Open]

BYU-Idaho Devotional Presentation ^ | Jan. 27, 2004 | Robert L. Millet

[Colofornian]

From the devotional presentation: Some doctrines, like the doctrine of “only true and living church” (D&C 1:30), by their very nature, arouse antagonism from those of other faiths. Would it not be wise to avoid or at least downplay such divisive points? Perhaps, some say, we should consider focusing on matters we have in common and put aside, for the time being, the distinctive teachings of the Restoration. Elder Boyd K. Packer declared: “If we thought only in terms of diplomacy or popularity, surely we should change our course. But we must hold tightly to it even though some turn away. . . .

So who does this Lds leader concede is "divisive?" (The Mormon church)

And why? 'Cause their "doctrine" is that the Lds church is the "only true and living church" -- thereby stating (along with other clearcut conclusions) that the Lds believe THEY are the "only" true church on the face of the earth...and the rest, by implication, are "false" and "dead."

From the presentation: “It is not an easy thing for us to defend the position that bothers so many others..." (Elder Boyd K. Packer, Lds general authority)

Well, Packer concedes exactly why Lds FREEPERS are silent on this point: It's simply not easy to defend the ground Joseph Smith & Smith's disciples have staked out!

Besides, what contemporary Mormons really want to be viewed as so exclusive and intolerant toward all other churches and their worshipers there?

What Mormon wants to be classified as "bigoted" 'cause they openly judge Christians based upon what church they attend?

[Colofornian]

From the presentation: ...Why is it that so many people throughout the world write scathing books, deliver biting addresses, and prepare vicious videos denouncing the Book of Mormon? What is it about black words on a white page, all of which are uplifting and edifying, that invite men and women to come unto Christ and be perfected in Him, that would arouse such bitter antagonism?

(Well, thank you for asking this question, Mr. Millet.)

Why indeed is the Book of Mormon so protagonistic?

Well, it came to pass that there were exceeding ways! (I'll stop at three!)

(1) Mitt Romney's Lds ancestor -- Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt admitted that: "The Book of Mormon must be either true or false. ... If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep laid, impositions ever palmed upon the world... (Introduction to Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, pp. 124-125).

I mean, that answer alone should suffice for Millet as to why its drawn such a provocative reaction!

But I'll list a few other reasons as well:

(2) If I was to...
* ...heavily plagiarize Biblical phrases from the Bible without credit -- even copying 11 word-for-word chapters from the Bible -- all so that when somebody read my stories I added to my "own version" of "scriptures" it'd give it a sense of "credibility," do you think such plagiarism of the most popular book in the history of the world would gain a standing ovation?
* ...heavily borrow from the Bible even narratives -- and just "change out" the character involved -- do you think that would cause on "encore" call from the audience?

What do I mean re the first asterisk above? An estimated 17,000+ words (26+ pages) of [KJV] ...material...either verbatim quotations of the Bible, or advance revelations of what would be written later, all in 1611 King James wording found its way into the Book of Mormon. Source: Facts & Feelings: Evaluating the Book of Mormon

[Added note: Well, I guess that shows Joseph Smith knew how to "cut & paste" back in his day, too...When I open up my Book of Mormon to 2 Nephi 24, yes, it says, for example "Compare Isaiah 14" -- but it doesn't say, "lifted word for word" from Isaiah 14!]

As for the second asterisk above, what character of the Bible did Joseph Smith "rip off" to pull into his Book of Mormon?

Well, read the New Testament account of Paul (like the book of Acts) and then compare it to the character of "Alma" in the book of Mosiah -- Mosiah chapter 27 -- which was supposedly ... per Smith, written between B.C. 100 and 92!

Bill Hearn covered the overlaps in his online pamphlet, A Reply to a Mormon. Go to A Reply to a Mormon and scroll down to pp. 33-34:

"Old Testament Book of Mormon characters were modeled after New Testament persons. Note comparison between Alma and Paul (Mosiah 27):
a.Both tried to "destroy the church" before their conversion.
b. Both were on a "mission of persecution" the day they were converted.
c. In both cases, those "present fell to earth."
d. In both cases, a voice spoke which others could not understand.
e. Both were asked by the voice why they were fighting against the work of God.
f. Both were helpless and "had to be helped by their friends."
g. Both fasted and prayed as a result.
h. Both preached after being converted.
i. Both worked with their hands to support their ministeries.
j. Both healed a crippled man.
k. Both "were put into prison."
l. Both prayed in prison.
m.Both experienced an earthquake while in prison.
n. In both cases, "the prisoner's bonds were loosed."
o. Both taught the same doctrines. For example:
(*) Faith, hope and charity (Alma 7:24; I Corinthians 13:13).
(*) The power of God unto salvation (Alma 15:6; Romans 1:16).
(*) Without God in the world (Alma 41:11; Ephesians 2:12).

(3) While Joseph Smith copied the apostle Paul to create the Alma character -- even copying from Eph. 2:12 -- he directly militated vs. what Paul said was crucial to our salvation per Eph. 2:8-10:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Simply stated...
* Mormonism has turned a "GIFT" into that which you have to earn!
* Secondly, it has bastardized the word "grace" -- since the very word means "gift!"
* Thirdly, note the order carefully here: God's gift of grace is the mechanism of salvation -- ["saved" is a past tense or present tense word...which Mormons are extremely uncomfortable with since they push "salvation" into the future!] This grace is accessed through faith in the dying & resurrected Christ. Paul says if "works" were the way, WE could boast about it -- 'cause these works are what we do. Yes, we do good works -- but we ourselves are God's worksmanship who created us (& then re-created us via being born from above) "unto good works." When Jesus was asked point blank: 28Then said they unto him, What shall WE do, that WE might work the works of God? (John 6:28) -- Jesus set the person straight: 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work OF GOD, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)

Why do Mormons have such a problem comprehending simple English -- that the works we do is credited and attributed to "the work of God" beyond us?

In a word, pride. The Mormon "gospel" appeals to man's pride...the "do it yourself" "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" approach.

But, really, the blame lies first with Joseph Smith, whom Mormons have believed.

Smith altered the Biblical gospel by claiming in the Book of Mormon that the mainstream teaching for almost 1,000 years in the Americas was a doctrine of the gift of grace only coming AFTER we fulfilled God's legalistic checklist. He said before grace kicked in, we needed to:
* Do "all you can do" (2 Nephi 25:23, supposedly almost 600 years before Christ)
* Do "works" (Helaman 12:24, supposedly 6 B.C.)
* "Deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind, and strength," (Moroni 10:32, supposedly written 421 A.D.)

If you did all this, Smith said, you thereby would "earn" grace -- thereby turning the meaning of both "grace" and "gift" on its head!

Anybody failing of doing "all they can do" (emotionally, physically, spiritually, relationally)...or not doing whatever "works" are required...or failing to love God "with all your might, mind, and strength"...or not denying yourselves of "ALL ungodliness"... sorry...Mormon grace doesn't kick in for you!
...You simply, per Smith's Book of Mormon, are not eligible for God's grace! [I've quoted those BoM verses @ the end of this post so people can read them themselves!]

Since rarely do people heal themselves to go to see the physician to get well, Mormons have it all turned around!!!

Clearly, Joseph Smith did not read or agree with Jesus' words in Matthew 5:31-32:

31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus came for us sinners. For those who need healing from the GREAT PHYSICIAN. He didn't come for the self-righteous -- those who were so perfected that they already were doing "all they" could do...and were already loving God with ALL their might, mind, and strength...and were already denying ALL aspects of ungodliness!

BoM anti-grace passages:

* 2 Nephi 25:23: ...ye are saved by grace, AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO." (2 Nephi 25:23)

* Helaman 12:24: "...may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their WORKS." (Helaman 12:24)

* Moroni 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

[P-Marlowe]

IB4PDSPAM

[DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis]

IBPD!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

IB4PDSPAMLINKSFROMUNOFFICIALSOURCES!!!

[Vendome]

Here is something I posted last year.  The numbers on the closures and opening of LDS Stakes and Missions have since changed but the rest of the post is still relevant.

 

 

The point of posting LDS authored stories is part of the Proselytizing .

 

Certainly, when LDS knocks on the door of an "Apostate" they expect objections.  Otherwise, why have the Student Manual for Missionaries, in which, they have points and counter points to their non-believers or what could be more accurately called Non-members of the LDS.

 

In fact, LDS missionaries search out opportunities for conversion in the less educated parts of the world where illiteracy is extremely high.  By that, I mean, if one looks at the efforts of LDS in countries south of the American border, you will find illiteracy rates that are in excess of 70%.

 

There is no point in disputing the numbers.  I have been involved in literacy programs for 5 years and the fact is, you can more easily sway someone, with emotion and power of persuasion, who does not read  or more importantly cannot read.  They have no real ability to study or collect thoughts of reason based on information contained within them or discovered by study.  Nothing to study if you can't read, you just take others words for truth.

 

Where is the proof that LDS efforts and growth at directed at countries with lower illiteracy rates?

10 New Missions to be Created, 14 to be Discontinued

Ireland Dublin Mission, one of the missions in Chicago, and a mission or two in Australia will be discontinued.

 

New missions include Peru Cuzco, Guatemala, Philipines, Democratic Republic of Congo Lubumbashi and more.  All new missions being formed outside the U.S. are in areas that have indisputably high illiteracy rates. 

 

A new mission in St George, Utah will stretch all the way to Farmington, New Mexico and is likely being built to support LDS immigrants to the areas of  traditional LDS communities.

 

However, it is interesting to note the total number of missions worldwide will fall by four from 344 to 340.

 

 

Now to the Student Manual for Missionaries and their program for conversion.

 

President Gordon B. Hinckley explained the importance of the Book of Mormon in relation to the Church and the Bible:
“If the Book of Mormon is true, the Church is true, for the same authority under which this sacred record came to light is present and manifest
among us today. It is a restoration of the Church set up by the Savior in Palestine. It is a restoration of the Church set up by the Savior when he visited
this continent as set forth in this sacred record.

 

Okay, so the reasoning is the same as defense of the Bible, which unlike Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, etc, has historical proof of certain events and the geography, where the events took place, is undisputed and the Bible is very stark proof of it's own provenance.

 

Gordon Hinckley continues:

"If the Book of Mormon is true, the Bible is true...."

 

And yet LDS claims the Bible to be rife with mistakes, lost books or purposely misleading.  This while they claim right to the very same scriptures, but maintain interprations of convenience, by way of contrivance.

 

President Benson also offered inspired counsel regarding how to use the Book of Mormon to respond to objections investigators(read possible converts) may have to the restored truths of the gospel:
“We are to use the Book of Mormon in handling objections to the Church. . . .
“. . . All objections, whether they be on abortion, plural marriage, seventh-day worship, etc., basically hinge on whether Joseph Smith and his successors were and are prophets of God receiving divine revelation.

 

• Here, then, is a procedure to handle most objections through the use of the Book of Mormon.
  “First, understand the objection.
  “Second, give the answer from revelation.
  “Third, show how the correctness of the answer really depends on whether or not we have modern revelation through modern prophets.
  “Fourth, explain that whether or not we have modern prophets and revelation really depends on whether the Book of Mormon is true.

So LDS recognizes there are real objections to their faith and to be fair so does Traditional Christianity.  Both have plans for conversions with the key difference between the two being as follows:

 

Church of Christ Latter Day Saints:

Their premise is that most converts come from the foundation of Traditional Christianity, which forms the basis of belief for their doctrine, which is of a slightly different story.  They hold that converts are worshipping Apostate Religions and they are the One True Church and therefore the only arbiters of ones future when it comes to eternal salvation.

 

No reason to look further than where ever you find Christians you will find LDS missionaries teaching a new way of thinking,  a new road to salvation and of a superior system that plays to man's innate vanity and hope to be something  more, such as deifying oneself through work.

 

But first they start their premise with unworthiness and shame the Christian into believing they have been had.  With no real defense of literacy and learnedness the most important decision in one's life is now called into question.

 

What will you do?  If the Book of Mormon is true and your heart is open to learning it's truth, you can be saved.  Bit of a canard and a highly charged emotional question that is a leading question of conscious, heart and spirit.

 

Traditional Christianity:

Here we find missionaries seeking out converts not from other religions but from souls of sola fide(by faith alone) and those very converts come from areas where God, in the light of Traditional Christianity, are not understood by lost souls nor has the salvation of Jesus Christ reached them yet.  Here we can think of China, North Korea, Middle East or Russia where God is a challenge to their authority, especially in the form of Christianity and is therefore outlawed.

 

The difference in Christianity and Mormonism goes to Sola Fide.

 

In Sola Fide we find salvation by God's grace and Jesus paying the ultimate sacrafice and the only path to eternal salvation and it is brought to you by faith alone that your pardon is secure, forever, through the gift of God, who recognizes that man could never hope to work his way to heaven or pay for his salvation as he is an imperfect being.

 

And so "For God so loved the World, he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life".

 

Mormons teach a version of God's greatest gift but if comes with qualifiers.  Their belief, in direct contradiction to historical Christian Doctrine, is one must some how become worthy to enter into God's kingdom.  How does one become worthy? There is no answer of specific definition, only that you must perform certain works showing your worthiness and that Joseph Smith will be the one who approves your "Passport" to heaven.  Yes, they do use the term passport in their doctrine, though one wonders what information should be contained in that passport.

 

 

And yet God tells "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God"  "There is none worthy, No, not one".  Seems pretty clear that God didn't even bother so single anyone out just lumped us all into a definition of lesser beings, who has shown great mercy on despite our incredible shortcomings.

 

Jesus tells us"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". (John 3:4-5)

 

Paul in his letter to the Ephesians:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” -Ephesians 2:8,9

 

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” –James 2:19.  This presents a huge conflict with Mormon belief that one can become a god, just like God.  It doesn't appear God agrees or approves.

 

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” –James 2:18.  So we are being presented with what the effect of faith is and that is: a belief, truly of the heart and spirit, will result in works demonstrating your walk in and with Christ.  It will be plainly apparent and motivated by spirit to excersise works of God in daily action or in specific witness of testimony.

 

Now in the Student Manual for Missionaries, of LDS, on page 77 we find the beginning discussion of Apostacy, in which the LDS begin to lay the foundation for proof of a foul religious belief and that theirs is the one and only true way:

Under the direction of Jesus Christ, the priesthood and the Church were restored through His servants.
The Restoration dispelled the darkness of the Apostasy. Priesthood authority was restored.
Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord organized His Church again upon the earth so that the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel could be correctly administered in order to help people come unto Christ.

 

President Gordon B. Hinckley also bore witness that the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored:
“This is the restored Church of Jesus Christ. . . . We testify that the heavens have been opened, that the curtains have been parted, that God has spoken, and that Jesus Christ has manifested Himself, followed by a bestowal of divine authority.

 

“Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of this work, and it is built upon a ‘foundation of . . . apostles and prophets’ (Ephesians 2:20)” (in Conference Report,
Oct. 2002, 87; or Ensign, Nov. 2002, 81).

Really?  How can Mormons possilby quote scripture from a book that was organized in the fourth century and specifically call out scripture by chapter and verse, even though they have their provenance in other religions, which are antithetical to your belief and an apostacy in the view of LDS?

 

And now begins the teaching of conversion from other faiths and the superiority of Mormonism with their unique and new scripture:

 

Elder Robert D. Hales of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained that faith is part of the fertile ground that nourishes conversion:
“The first seeds of conversion begin with an awareness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and a desire to know the truth concerning His restored Church.
‘Let this desire work in you’ (Alma 32:27). A desire to know the truth is like a seed which grows in the fertile ground of faith, patience, diligence and
long-suffering (see Alma 32:27–41). . . .

 

The Church of Christ Latter Day Saints makes no pretense as to who their target market is for conversion.

 

Elder Dallin H. Oaks taught that conversion requires a complete willingness to give up all practices contrary to the teachings of the restored
gospel:

“The gospel of Jesus Christ challenges us to change. ‘Repent’ is its most frequent message, and repenting means giving up all of our practices—
personal, family, ethnic, and national—that are contrary to the commandments of God. The purpose of the gospel is to transform common
creatures into celestial citizens, and that requires change” (in Conference Report, Oct. 2003, 39; or Ensign, Nov. 2003, 37).

 

So I could finish a whole dissortation on the subject of specific market converts and what LDS has to say about their doctrine but, suffice to say they are well aware of opposition to their faith and have a plan to counter objections.

 

Also, we are given specific demands of faith, by LDS, in their writings.  So why the opposition to being "called on the carpet" as it were?

 

I think down deep, many in LDS know there are some real challenges in the history of their formation, by "Apostles" and "Prophets".  They also know their founders had some real errors of heart and spirit, such as having several wives and even taking the wives of other men and then having those men officiate or act as witness to their wife being taken by another man.

 

Talk about losing your way.  I mean, what man would accept that god had commanded and ordained another man to take his wife?  Where would you scriptural imprimatur for such a thing?  No where.

 

I will expand on this later but that about does it for today.

[svcw]

Yawn, roll eyes, been addressed a 1000 times.....place marker

[Safrguns]

“Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none”

Why did he say this? Did he think it helps his case? Take away any one of the 4 gospels, and Christianity is not affected at all. God inspired multiple people to write his Word down for a reason... So what made Smith think that stating the obvious about his UNCONFIRMED "word from the Lord" would help him?

[reaganaut]

ib4pd

[svcw]

Bingo!

[Colofornian]

Why did he say this? Did he think it helps his case? Take away any one of the 4 gospels, and Christianity is not affected at all.

That's just it! Mormonism isn't Christianity!

Take away the Book of Mormon, said their general authority B.H. Roberts, and you don't have Mormonism. A very true statement!.

Roberts, BTW, was a Democrat, who was denied holding a Congressional office in 1898 because he had married yet a third simultaneous wife in the early 1890s (AFTER the manifesto supposedly cutting back polygamy).

[Elsie]

 

...Why is it that so many people throughout the world write scathing books, deliver biting addresses, and prepare vicious videos denouncing the Book of Mormon?

 

INDEED!

Why is it???

---

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,

“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

 

 

And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have said the same!

 

Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).

 

[Elsie]

“It is not an easy thing for us to defend the position that bothers so many others..."

What they cannot defend is their OWN Leader's words and their OWN prophet's TEACHINGS!

[Elsie]

Take away the Book of Mormon, said their general authority B.H. Roberts, and you don't have Mormonism. A very true statement!.

Hateful bigot you KNOW that's a LIE!!

Take away our beloved Book of MORMON and We sail on, unperturbed!

There ain't NONE of our doctrine found in it and there ain't none of our secr SACRED Temple Rites® found in it.

--MormonDude(So THERE!)

[Paragon Defender]

Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.  

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Some of them claim being some sort of special witness to you as being supposedly former Mormons. So someone who is an ex-member of any organization would never have an axe to grind or have reason to try to justify their actions by any means? Perhaps not but perhaps so. The LDS Church gains members from other denominations as well as others faiths all the time. This doesn't make them an expert on anything and you certainly won't hear them attacking their former Church.

Frequently they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, quote and straw man attack that. Almost without fail you will see examples of this following this post.

Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think. So again, seek the truth. They aren't providing it. Use your God-given brain and discernment.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address or answer our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you? They often state that these sites provide no answer. They just don't want you looking. It is as simple as that.

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[Elsie]

There are LOTS of things 'unseen' in MORMONism. One of them is Paragon's apparent LACK of ability to PROVE his point - whatever it might be. This does not seem to bother him in the least, that we can SHOW stuff from his links that are...

1. Untrue
2. Proven false
3. Disclaimers that say, "Don't look to US for truth!"

PD likes his one post, just the way it is.

He is the eternal optimist, digging thru the manure pile at the stable, saying that there 'surely must be a pony in here somewhere."

[Elsie]

 

 Yes, it’s a legal structure set up the laws of man, but the Church operates in the secular environment and has to deal with the laws of the lands in which it is organized. That doesn’t in my mind invalidate in any way its divine mandate.

Oh?  I'll bet the MORMON god will have something to say to those who has abandoned his Eternal Covenant of POLYGAMY found in D&C 132!

 

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Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages,

which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort,

I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws,

and to use my influence with the members of the Church

over which I preside to have them do likewise.

 

Wilford Woodruff

President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

September 24th, 1890

[Elsie]

PD; I like this link, too!

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Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

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FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.

 

 

[Elsie]

PD; you have got some EXCELLANT web links!

I'm SO glad you've posted them!!!

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Godhead

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) believe, as do other Christians, in one Supreme Being who governs the universe, and who is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. However, Mormons don't believe that He works alone but as the presiding member of what they call the godhead.

The Bible dictionary says that God is “The Supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22-23).”

 Mormons believe that these three gods—”separate in personality {but}. . . united as one in purpose, in plan, and in all the attributes of perfection” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 317)—are the partnership which rules the universe, with God the Eternal Father the controlling and governing power. LDS Apostle James E. Talmage states it this way: “These constitute the Holy Trinity, comprising three physically separate and distinct individuals, who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens” (Jesus the Christ, p. 32).

This belief is distinct from the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which generally maintains that they are three persons but one in essence. All three members of the Godhead are eternal and equally divine, but play somewhat different roles.

 

 

(From MORMON.wiki --->  http://www.mormonwiki.com/Godhead )   Move along: no agenda here...

[Elsie]

Yup, PD, REALLY good links!

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God the Father

Our Heavenly Father, also called Elohim, stands in the exalted position above all beings.

 However, Joseph Smith says that “. . . he is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . .If you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, form, and image of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another” (Documentary History of the Church, p. 305).

 

 

Yup; the same source as above http://www.mormonwiki.com/Godhead