Posted on 01/29/2011 7:06:07 PM PST by Benchim
Even Satan believes Jesus is the Son of God
But how do we know the belief, the faith is true?
By works.
What would have happened if all the Apostles and disciples decided that since they were saved, all the need do is sit back and wait for Christ to come back and get them?
No, the had to do works. They had to do something. Their faith was not just belief but action.
Both/And
But how do we know the belief, the faith is true?
By works.
What would have happened if all the Apostles and disciples decided that since they were saved, all they need do is sit back and wait for Christ to come back and get them?
No, they had to do works. They had to do something. Their faith was not just belief but action.
Both/And
Sorry for the double post, my computer is behaving badly.
You could post “Both/And” a hundred times and the “faith alone” crowd still wouldn’t get it!
re: “Let me ask a simple question, yes or no - Do works play any role whatsoever in the Salvation plan of Christ for us?”
I think we’re generating a lot of heat without producing much light. This is just my opinion, but I think many people are confused by the word “works”. I think some of the posters here believe that “works” means “following the Law” of the Old Testament. Others are not talking about that, but are speaking of the “fruit of the Spirit”, “acts of righteousness” following salvation.
The New Testament is clear - No one will achieve salvation/justification before God - that is, forgiveness of their sins and remove the guilt of their sins by trying to follow or keep the Old Testament Law. We’ve all posted passages over and over that state this.
I think the confusion is that some people think what James is talking about and Paul is talking about are the same thing in regard to works. They aren’t. James is speaking of acts of righteousness and obedience that follow salvation. He’s says that if a person claims to be a Christian by his faith, and yet shows no outward acts of Christian obedience or charity, then he questions whether that person’s faith is real. Why? Because if a person truely professes faith in Christ - that means they are allowing Christ to be Lord, the Boss of their lives. That’s what “confession” means. Therefore, there should be evidence of Christ’s Lordship in our daily walk with Him. These type of works are “fruit” and acts of obedience. These do not save us, but if they are absent it is a strong indicator that we have not really “believed” or confessed that Jesus is Lord.
As I mentioned before, professing belief in Christ is not just an intellectual acknowledgement that certain facts about Him are true - that is not “confession” nor is it “faith”. As we’ve already pointed out, James reminds us that Satan and the Demons believe all that and yet are not saved - Why? Because they don’t acknowledge or submit to Jesus’s Lordship over them.
Paul, James, even Jesus, all speak of “repentance”, “doing the will of my Father”. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord’, ‘Lord’, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my father”.
Peter, in Acts 2:38, says:
“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
“Repent” means to “change direction” to turn away from the life of sin we were following and turn to Christ and His Lordship over our lives.
So, to answer your question “Do works play any role whatsoever in the Salvation plan of Christ for us?” Yes - they absolutely do. Not in the sense that they are necessary to “save” us, but that God does save us for something - to do good works. If acts of love and obedience to Christ are absent from our lives - then there is something seriously wrong with our faith.
Now, as to those people who claim that mere belief in Christ can save us, and then we can do whatever we want - even continue in a sinful lifestyle - that is heresy! That is someone trying to justify sin in their life and drag God into their perversion. Paul says we should not associate with such a person or have anything to do with them - why? Because they are false witnesses and false prophets who claim to know our Lord, but yet are spreading lies about His grace and mercy and twist the Word of God to their own ends. They won’t listen to sound teaching or the authority of any church or God’s Word. The Church is Christ’s body on earth and He gave His life for it. Anyone who goes around dissing Christian churches is dissing Christ’s Bride and they will answer for it.
By the way, I’m Baptist, so I’m not promoting Catholism or even my particular denomination. As long as we agree on basic, sound Christian teaching and doctrine, we are brothers and sisters in Christ no matter what our label. I have many Christian brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church, Methodist, Preysbeterian, Evangelical Free, Assembly of God, etc. We don’t agree on everything, but we all agree on who Christ is and what He accomplished on the Cross in our behalf.
No, works are not a part of salvation. Salvation is a free gift from God. Jesus was sent to take our sins onto Himself totally. His perfect sacrifice was total and complete. If His sacrifice was complete and total payment for our sins how can anything be added to it. Satan wants us to think Jesus sacrifice was not good enough so tries to convince us that we need to earn part of it. Jesus told us “my grace is sufficient for thee”. Can you imagine facing Jesus one day and telling Him you didn’t think what He did was quite good enough? Not me.
>>If one is saved, doesn’t one then produce fruit?<<
Absolutely. Think about it. Jesus saved us through no goodness on our part from eternity in hell and promised us a glorious life with Him. If you believe that, wouldn’t you want to please Him? Yet it’s not we who can do the good but the strength of the Spirit of God working through us “lest we should boast”.
>>How does one produce fruit without works?<<
When we are saved we are indwelt with the Spirit of God. It’s that Spirit within us that directs and works through us if we listen. That “still small voice” that tells us to do something or not do something. Trust me, if you have accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior and pray to Him personally each day He will direct you and there will be fruit if you listen. But that is after the salvation is complete.
Now, pray for guidance and re-read my post 107.
re: “if that person never shows any evidence by their actions, deeds, works that they have truely allowed Jesus to be Lord of their lives - then that person’s faith is worthless.
Sounds like what the Catholic Church teaches.”
Jvette,
I happen to be Baptist, but yes, I believe we do agree on that point (and many others as well). I have a deep respect for the Catholic Church and how it has preserved the New Testament Greek manuscripts that we continue to use and help translate the Scriptures.
I also appreciate the Catholic Church’s strong stand on protecting the unborn and helping the poor all over the world. I used to be involved in Operation Rescue and spent some time in jail with other brothers in Christ - most of whom happened to be Catholic. God bless you brother. I’ve enjoyed your posts and your obvious love for God’s Word. Keep up the good fight.
Well, Nevadan, I have to agree with your assessment and believe me when I tell you that it is completely in line with what my church, the Catholic church teaches regarding faith and works.
True faith will yield fruit through good works.
BTW, are you from Vegas? Just curious because of your name and that is where I live.
Salvation is deliverance from the consequence of sin which is eternal separation from God. Jesus has paid the penalty for sin for those who believe in Him.
By saying that we are called to produce fruit as evidence of our salvation, we are not saying that it is OUR goodness that has created the fruit but GOD’s goodness working in us and through us.
In that way, good works are indeed a part of salvation.
Thank you Nevadan.
For the record, I am a sister:)
Praise God that more and more Christian brothers and sisters are coming back to the truth, that all human life is precious and deserves protection. Not saying that you ever believed differently, but there are some Christians who need to be reminded of this truth.
May God bless you for not allowing any differences in our manner of worshiping Him to cloud your love for other brothers and sisters in Christ.
re: “May God bless you for not allowing any differences in our manner of worshiping Him to cloud your love for other brothers and sisters in Christ.”
Same to you, my dear Sister in Christ.
This Rock Volume 8, Number 6 June 1997
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706chap.asp
One passage Fundamentalists often cite as a prooftext against the Catholic view of salvation is Ephesians 2:8–9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Though this passage can stymie Catholics in conversation, they need not feel threatened by it. Even if we assume that Paul is speaking of "good works" when he says we have not been saved by works, this in no way conflicts with Catholic theology.
Notice that the passage speaks of salvation in the past tense—"you have been saved." In Greek this is the perfect tense, which denotes a past, completed action. We know from the Bible that salvation also has present and future aspects, so the kind of salvation Paul is discussing in Ephesians 2:8–9 is initial salvation. It is the kind which we received when we first came to God and were justified, not the kind of salvation we are now receiving (1 Pet. 1:8–9, Phil. 2:12) or the kind we one day will receive (Rom. 13:11, 1 Cor. 3:15, 5:5).
But the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified. The Council of Trent states: "And we are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]" (Decree on Justification 8).
So even if Paul were using "works" to mean "good works" in Ephesians 2:8–9, there is no conflict with Catholic theology. However, Paul probably does not mean "good works." Normally when he says "works," he means "works of the Law"—those done out of the Law of Moses. His point is to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and not by obeying the Mosaic Law. Jews may not boast of having a privileged relationship with God because they keep the Mosaic Law and its requirement of circumcision (Rom. 2:6–11, 17–21, 25–29, 3:21–22, 27–30).
Paul discusses how Jew and Gentiles are united together in the body of Christ and mentions works in connection with boasting, before turning to the whole subject of circumcision and membership in Christ: "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision . . . remember that you were at that time separated from Christ. . . . But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the Law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two . . . and might reconcile us both to God in one body. . . . So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Eph. 2:11–19).
Paul is probably using "works" and "boasting" here as he does in Romans, of Jews boasting before Gentiles of having privilege with God due to their keeping the Mosaic Law. He says we are not saved in that manner, but by faith—meaning faith in Christ—so no one, either Jew or Gentile, can boast of having a more privileged position with God. We are all saved on the same basis—through faith in Christ and union in his body, the Church.
The apostle then turns our attention away from works of the Mosaic Law and toward the kind of works a Christian should be interested in—good works: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). The sense of what Paul is saying is: "God has raised up both of us—Jews and Gentiles—to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, for we received initial salvation as a gift. We obtained it by faith in Christ (which itself is a gift from God), not by works of obedience to the Mosaic Law—so neither Jew or Gentile can boast over the other of having privilege with God. Instead, we Christians are the result of God’s work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works—the kind of works we should be concerned about—for God intended ahead of time for us to do them" (paraphrase of Eph. 2:6–10).
Salvation includes the indwelling of the Spirit of God. In Acts Paul and Silas told the jailors “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house”. That word “believe” is powerful.
When a person truly believes and trusts in Jesus they are indwelt by the Spirit of God. How would the Spirit of God not cause one to tell others and go out and do the will of God? Would the Spirit of God which directs us after we are saved cause us to “sit back and wait”? I think not. Would a person who didn’t really trust/believe in Jesus but simply mouthed the words to impress someone sit back? Probably, because the Spirit isn’t in him. It’s the fruit of the Spirit causing us to move and do, not ourselves or our fleshly nature but the Spirit within us.
Interesting post. Has the Catholic Church always held this position on grace and works? If so, what was Martin Luther’s issue? Just curious.
re: “One passage Fundamentalists often cite as a prooftext against the Catholic view of salvation is Ephesians 2:8–9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”
What is the difference between the “Fundamentalist” view of salvation/works as opposed to the Catholic view? Unless I’m missing something, I really don’t see a difference between the Protestant view and the Catholic view from what you posted.
Why is it Cynical we always seem to go around in circles?
You are always very respectful and I want you to know that I appreciate it very much.
We are saying exactly the same thing!
How do we know that it Abraham was righteous? By what he did.
What he did, did not make him righteous, but the faith that cause him to do it.
That is the Catholic belief regarding faith and works.
Catholics do not hold that we can “work” our way to heaven.
Catholics believe that those who have faith are saved by that faith and the evidence of that faith is seen in our works.
Jesus said, “By their fruits, you shall know them.”
If what I say and what I do are two diametrically opposed things, what are you going to believe of me?
If I say I have faith yet do nothing with that faith, have I real faith or have I just given lip service?
And, if I do something with that faith, am I doing it to show you or to show the Lord? Jesus tells us not to seek the rewards of this world for our charity.
Not everyone who cries out to Him will enter heaven.
Those who fail to show mercy, love, kindness, and charity are not those who know the Lord and therefore, He does not know them.
Well said, sir:)
Yes it has. As Jvette has pointed out, it is "Both/And" not "Either/Or"
Martin Luther believed in Faith Alone. That is why he wanted to remove James from the Bible. The church at the time also had some falible leaders - selling indulgences to raise money for building in Rome a most glaring example. We are all sinners.
Phillip Hughes wrote a three volume history of the Church - It is hard to find in print but it is available on line. http://www.franciscan-sfo.org/ap/hu/00-index.htm
Catholic Answers is a great resource. www.Catholic.com
But we are all seeking Truth. There can only be one Truth, at least according to Scripture: “I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 1Cor 1:10-17
You could easily read the above as “One of you says, "I follow Luther"; another, "I follow Calvin"; another, "I follow Wesley"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Christians cannot be “perfectly united in mind and thought” when they have different beliefs on, say, the necessity of water baptism, while others believe “This is my Body” means “This is a cookie”
God bless in your journey to the truth.
I saw a documentary once on Martin Luther which spoke of his metaphor of sinners being saved as being dung heaps covered in snow.
This documentary said that Martin Luther did not think he could ever do enough to make up for his sins or to deserve God’s love and forgiveness and indicated that he may have suffered some type of depression or bipolar type disorder as it would be called today.
But, he was disgusted by the practice of indulgences which seemed to suggest that one could sin with impunity and then buy forgiveness and salvation.
But, indulgences had nothing to do with salvation but rather temporal punishment for sin.
Martin seems to me to have been a very conflicted man who was a part of spawning something even bigger than even he imagined. He was used by the German princes to break away from the Church and its civic power. He was appalled by what was wrought through the reformation and in his Admonition to Peace, tried to quell the peasants using the Bible to justify their violence against churches and religious and to call upon the rulers to treat with justice the peasants demands.
My own analysis is that Martin Luther, was genius but a bit unstable, had put his entire faith in the men of the church and upon learning that those men sometimes were even more sinful than he, then put his faith in the book. But, I don’t believe he found the solace he sought in it either, which is why he tinkered with it in his own translation.
Catholics today struggle with some of the same issues. It is hard to see such scandal from our priests and bishops and discouraging to see so many Catholics who refuse to live the tenets of their professed faith. Even worse to be judged on them rather on the faith itself.
I always keep foremost in my mind that it is Christ I seek and Him I worship, for if I let my faith depend on the actions of others, I would probably give it up too.
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