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PHILADELPHIA PRIESTS ACCUSED BY GRAND JURY OF SEXUAL ABUSE AND COVER-UP
New York Times ^ | 2-10-11 | Jon Hurdle

Posted on 02/11/2011 7:11:53 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg

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To: MarMema

Thanks for every one of these examples. They illustrate that Protestants handle errant pastors a lot differently than Rome handles (hides, defends, keeps on the job) theirs.


151 posted on 02/12/2011 5:27:56 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petrosius
Nothing in Canon Law or the documents that you have presented ever prevented a victim or his family from going to the police.

Wonder if it stems from a possible threat of excommunication or some kind of wrong doing/disobedience/sin in the minds of the victim/family in going to the police instead of the church. Or it's possible they didn't blame the church but just the priest but when nothing was done....

Are all members given their personal copy of Canon Law?
152 posted on 02/12/2011 5:29:28 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Palladin; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Praise God for your integrity, Bro.

Evil is flooding the land as Scripture predicted.

Abusing innocents is the lowest of the low.

There’s been horrific stuff on all sides in all denominational groups. There’s been cover-ups by authorities in more than the RCC camp.

It does appear from our Proddy distance . . . that the systemic factors contributing to the abuse in the Vatican system are likely the worst.

I think that’s partly—a large part—of why so many Proddys express such virulent and persistent outrage—the level of horror and the levels of hierarchical involvement and the durability of the cover-up efforts.

However, no denomination of any size or age has sufficient clean slate to be pointing haughty fingers.

However, it REALLY IS TRUE, for all of us . . . the hearts of all of us are deceitfully wicked. Who but Holy Spirit can know them and reveal the truth of them to any of us.

And, haughtiness is not wise on anyone’s part.

Given horrific enough parenting; personality dynamics of sufficient type; conditioning factors etc. etc. etc. VIRTUALLY anyone COULD do virtually anything to virtually anyone.

I think Scripture and several decades of living and watching closely convices me wholesale of those truths.

The TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL IS . . . LORD . . . BE MERCIFUL

TO

ME

A SINNER.

NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS DEALS WITH, COVERS, REDEEMS SUCH SINFUL IDOLATRIES [AS SCRIPTURE SAYS SEXUAL SINS ARE] AND REBELLIONS AGAINST GOD.

NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS.

Apart from that, we are all in the same lost ditch sliding ever more quickly toward hell.

It will not matter ENORMOUSLY in hell [AT LEAS not in terms of whether one is there, or not] . . . who was the most horrific child molester/abuser . . .

and who was angry with his spouse or brother without cause and failed to confess, repent, earnestly endeavor to turn from it.

I still think that toilet needs and our sins serve primarily to require of us

HUMILITY.

And they are God’s mercy in challenging, demanding of us

HUMILITY.

Without it, we are ALL sunk.

We must ALL see our DESPERATE NEED OF OUR SAVIOR; OF CONFESSION; REPENTANCE, EARNESTLY ENDEAVORING BY HIS GRACE, BLOOD AND SPIRIT TO TURN FROM SUCH AND WALK HIS REDEMPTIVE PATH STARKLY DIFFERENTLY.

In that regard, these threads grieve me for both sides. Haughty finger pointing is spiritually extremely hazardous.

There but for the Grace of God and a different rearing, background . . . go any of us.

Haughty defensive denial is as bad or WORSE.

I think the denial is worse because it closes the door to insight and redemptive change.

Regardless . . . LOVE AND TRUTH are required for progress spiritually, relationally, in our relationship with God.

Apart from blasphemy against Holy Spirit, The worst sin . . .

is the unconfessed, unrepented, & unforsaken sin.


153 posted on 02/12/2011 5:39:53 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Mr. mm and I have always considered accountability to be important for a church so have never sought out an independent church to attend, but rather one which answers to denominational authority.

That also is a safety check as there have been cases I’ve heard of where pastors were preaching questionable, unscriptural doctrine and after a visit from someone at headquarters, he was GONE!

You don’t end up with Jim Jones type scenarios like that.


154 posted on 02/12/2011 5:41:16 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Petrosius

“At the present the Catholic Church at all levels is vigorously pursuing these cases.”

Sad to say, in the Philadelphia Diocese, they are not.

Rigali is still trying to cover up, despite the objective report of the grand jury.

Read the report.


155 posted on 02/12/2011 5:44:18 PM PST by Palladin (Obama, go back to Hawaii! Better yet, go back to Kenya!!)
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To: Palladin

My prediction:

Rigali will be swept off to the Vatican, perhaps to take the place of Cardinal Bernard Law:

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/articles/our_man_in_rome/


156 posted on 02/12/2011 5:49:44 PM PST by Palladin (Obama, go back to Hawaii! Better yet, go back to Kenya!!)
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To: Palladin

May The Lord richly bless you and those you love for your integrity, candor, honesty, perceptiveness.


157 posted on 02/12/2011 5:49:50 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

Thank you, dear Quix. When it comes to this particular issue, you and I are on the same side.


158 posted on 02/12/2011 5:51:30 PM PST by Palladin (Obama, go back to Hawaii! Better yet, go back to Kenya!!)
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To: Palladin

PRAISE THE LORD.

THX FOR YOUR KIND REPLY.


159 posted on 02/12/2011 6:17:33 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: marshmallow

Snort.


160 posted on 02/12/2011 7:08:42 PM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: metmom
Molesting children is not an *oops, I slipped* moment. It is a deliberate, thought out act that requires planning to arrange the circumstances for. Putting it in the same category of a sin that someone commits under pressure or through lack of planning or being in the wrong place at the wrong time or seeing something one shouldn't have is disingenuous and reprehensible.

Absolutely! Paul gave the church at Corinth a lashing over their inaction about a member who fooled around with his father's wife. Confront him and if he won't confess and repent and cease the sin, he was to be kicked out of the church. Why do we have actual leaders within churches today who not only refuse to even admit they have done wrong but get pushed on up the parochial ladder by their overseers??? Talk about seared consciences! I do NOT want to be there at that judgment scene.

161 posted on 02/12/2011 9:46:53 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Quix

Thank you for sharing your testimony and insights, dear brother in Christ!


162 posted on 02/12/2011 10:22:04 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Thanks for your kind reply.


163 posted on 02/12/2011 10:32:25 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
What a contrast between that and Rome’s outright denial of accusations, refusal to go to police authorities, and hiding priests as they shuttle them from one unsuspecting parish to another.

Read the post. It says "refuse to believe the charges".

164 posted on 02/13/2011 3:10:50 AM PST by MarMema
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The Archdiocese of Philadelphia comprises more than just one city. That being said, ANYONE who abuses children needs to be called to account for it, be that a priest, nun, lay teacher, whoever. If the Grand Jury finds enough evidence to convict, all the better! I just hope that innocent priests, nuns, or teachers aren't caught up in the push to 'teach the Church a lesson', which is what has happened in many Dioceses.

My family has a personal friend, a very good priest, who was accused of indiscretion, by a woman in her 60's who claimed he 'took liberties' with her, when she was in her teens. Even her family and friends didn't believe her, because they've known her for years, and understand her emotional problems, which she's had ALL her life, even before this priest ever came to our town. But in the new, "get rid of them as soon as there is an accusation" mindset of some Bishops, who are trying to not look like they're covering anything up, some completely innocent priests have been treated very unfairly.

I make absolutely NO excuses for Bishops who were looking to cover up abuse, so as to not create problems for themselves, because they made a horrible situation even worse. The abusers need to spend a LONG time in jail to consider what they've done, and ask for forgiveness from God, and those they hurt.

165 posted on 02/13/2011 7:30:25 AM PST by SuziQ
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To: Antoninus
"You know nothing of the particulars of this situation."

Not mentioned in this are the disclosures of political insiders that claim that this report, sans any indictments, was retribution for the Church's forcing their hand on the indictment of Dr. Kermit B. Gosnell.

166 posted on 02/13/2011 7:52:03 PM PST by Natural Law (As a Catholic I know I am held to a higher standard (but it's worth it).)
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To: Petrosius; Antoninus
"Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal."

Why on earth would anyone doubt the motives of anyone who spends in excess of 60 hours per week posting information of dubious veracity that is always highly critical of the Church?

167 posted on 02/13/2011 7:56:13 PM PST by Natural Law (As a Catholic I know I am held to a higher standard (but it's worth it).)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Religion Moderator
"What parent would turn their young sons over to these people?"

Who in the hell to you think "these people" are? I coordinated my parish's altar server program for over 15 years. I recruited, trained, and scheduled servers and worked closely during that period of time with the other parishes of my diocese so when you saw "these people" you are talking about me and that is personal!

I am a 3rd generation altar boy and my sons and nephews were servers. Never in my entire life have I ever heard a first or even second hand account of any molestation.

168 posted on 02/13/2011 8:10:07 PM PST by Natural Law (As a Catholic I know I am held to a higher standard (but it's worth it).)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
That's why I'm a Presbyterian.

Uh oh...

Google search with keywords: presbyterian sex abuse scandal

Now tell me again how Christians going back and forth like this exposing each other as terrible sinners advances the Kingdom of Christ?
169 posted on 02/13/2011 9:18:09 PM PST by Antoninus (The slogan for the 2012 election: Better a known enemy than a false friend. Say no to Romney.)
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To: Religion Moderator
Your inaction on this most recent affront to decency by Dr. Eckleburg shows exactly what a sham the "religion" forum really is. For all of the "don't make it personal", "leave the thread", and "get some thick skin" admonitions you hand down when Catholics act up your tacit approval of the vial filth and very personal invective spewed by that so-called Christian shows your sympathies.

To openly and unashamedly state that altar server programs are implemented to groom boys for pedophiles slanders the many thousands of youth, laity and clergy who have performed this service to God for generations shows what a filthy agenda Dr. Eckleburg has. If that wasn't flame bait nothing is. I am not questioning her motives or attempting mind reading, I am stating them right out. She is a evil trolling hatemonger hiding behind the rules and deserves to be zotted.

170 posted on 02/14/2011 2:13:29 AM PST by Natural Law (As a Catholic I know I am held to a higher standard (but it's worth it).)
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To: Natural Law; Dr. Eckleburg
You took Dr. Eckleburg's term "these people" personally. She was not addressing it to you, personally.

With reference to religions, deities, religious authorities and such - ridicule, condemnation and anti rhetoric are allowed only on "open" Religion Forum threads.

I can and do intervene to keep posters from "making it personal" but there is nothing I can do to keep posters from "taking it personally."

You are too thin skinned to continue on the subject of this thread.

Leave the thread.

171 posted on 02/14/2011 9:05:10 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Natural Law

That is pure unadulterated BS.


172 posted on 02/14/2011 9:32:57 AM PST by Palladin (Obama, go back to Hawaii! Better yet, go back to Kenya!!)
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To: Religion Moderator

Dr. Eckleburg is a SHE?

Who knew?


173 posted on 02/14/2011 9:37:02 AM PST by Palladin (Obama, go back to Hawaii! Better yet, go back to Kenya!!)
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To: Jim Noble

An excellent objective post.


174 posted on 02/14/2011 9:42:25 AM PST by Palladin (Obama, go back to Hawaii! Better yet, go back to Kenya!!)
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To: Petrosius; Dr. Eckleburg

It would appear, Dr E . . .

that either this is another member of the Vatican Alice In Wonderland School Of Theology, Reality Mangling, Chronic Professional Blaming, Wailing and Whining Cult.

Or, the old bloke with a similar name got a very high powered calmness implant.

Which would be good—for lots of folks, probably.


175 posted on 02/16/2011 10:15:25 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Petrosius; Quix
The pontifical secret to which you constantly refer only applies to the internal canonical investigation.

That is not what the document says. It's what RC apologists say who hope to take the heat off of Rome's ungodly defense of the indefensible.

Read paragraph 13 of Crimen Sollicitationis...

"13. The oath of keeping the secret must be given in these cases also by the accusers or those denouncing [the priest] and the witnesses. To none of these, however, is there subjection to a censure, unless by chance toward these same persons some censure has been expressly threatened upon the person himself, for his accusation, his deposition or of his violation (Excussionis?) [of such] by act. The accused, however, should be most seriously warned that even he, with all [the others], especially when he observes the secret with his defender, is under the penalty of suspension a divinis in case of a transgression to be incurred ipso facto. "

Rome swears to secrecy, under penalty of excommunication, even the accuser and anyone else involved with the proceedings, including parents.

The more light shown on Rome, the more rancid its lies become.

Rome reaps what it has sown.

Christopher Hitchens is wrong about everything regarding Christianity except one thing - Ratzinger belongs in jail.

176 posted on 02/16/2011 11:58:33 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Very telling.


177 posted on 02/16/2011 12:08:41 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
One more time:

1) Crimen sollicitationis is only applicable to sollicitation within the sacrament of Confession; it does not apply to acts outside of Confession.

2) "In these cases" refers to the judicial case, not the crime. Victims and witnesses can still go to the police to report the original act; they are just forbidden to report on the internal church judicial proceedings. What is so hard to understand here?

3) Did you not notice the line in your own quote: "To none of these [accusers and witnesses] IS THERE SUBJECTION TO A CENSURE…" ? Your own quote shows that they ARE NOT SUBJECT TO EXCOMMUNICATION.

178 posted on 02/16/2011 12:15:00 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Palladin; Petrosius
Lent is less than 3 weeks away!! A time for prayer and spiritual reflection on God.

We all will be fasting to reflect on the experience of Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins.

We Catholics pray for those who hate us, pray for their souls and pray to God to bless them

As Catholics, we can pray on the prayer at this caucus thread

Freepmail me if you have any queries
179 posted on 02/17/2011 12:25:43 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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