Wonder what throne Mary is sitting on in the above picture?
Posted on 03/19/2011 10:57:34 PM PDT by dangus
"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior." -- Luke 1:47
It is undeniable, that "Savior" in this sense alludes to being saved from sin. So the question is: If Mary had never sinned, or was never guilty of original sin, as the Catholic Church states, why would she need a Savior?
As in English, in Greek word for "Savior" ("soter") comes from the word for "safe" ("sozo"). In modern English, the connection between "safe" and "heal" is largely lost, but "salvation" retains the root, "salv," from "salve," meaning "heal" or "a healing ointment." Thus, the notion of a "savior" being one who restores health, or undoes harm is not a completely incorrect notion. But neither should it overshadow the fundamental meaning that a "savior" is one who prevents harm, as much as one who restores one from harm.
Therefore, it should hardly be surprising that one who has been prevented from original sin should rejoice in her "savior" from original sin.
In fact, the term "savior" in Greek has a connotation of a god who preserves his people. As explained in the Protestant lexicon, Strong's Concordance,:
The name was given by the ancients to deities, esp. tutelary deities, to princes, kings, and in general to men who had conferred signal benefits upon their country, and in more degenerate days by the way of flattery to personages of influence.(Wigram) The word soter was a common Greek epithet for the gods (e.g., Zeus, Apollo, and Hermes), active personalities in world affairs (e.g., Epicurus) and rulers (e.g., Ptolemy Philopator, and later Roman Emporers). (cf. LSJ and BDAG)God certainly was Mary's Lord and Protector, who kept her safe from sin. That does not mean she sinned.
But doesn't Paul state that "all have sinned?" Is Paul wrong?
Not in the least. As Protestant theologian Charles Spurgeon explains (in an alternate context) the meaning of "all," (in Greek, "pas"):
"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).In context, what Paul is saying is that Jews (in general) and Greeks (in general), and every other people (in general) have sinned. To establish that Jews are no better than any other people, he quotes the prophet Isaiah,
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.In this passage, the prophet is describing the Jews around him, and uses the phrase, "There is no-one righteous, not one." It's been argued that the prophet is describing in a prophetic sense not just the Jews around him, but the universal condition of man, as a result of original sin. It might make sense to say that all we who have committed original sin are not righteous in a sense, since our righteousness is imputed righteousness, earned not by our own effort, but by Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways and the way of peace they do not know.
" "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
But that same passage asserts that not one has done anything good at all, that they know not the way of peace, and there is no fear of God among anyone. Even if our righteousness is merely imputed, and our ability to do good relies entirely on Christ acting through us, regenerated Christians do good, know the way of peace and fear God. As such, we know that Paul is using that passage only to establish that Jews need Christ as much as Gentiles, for they have been as wicked as Gentiles, he is not using that passage to describe saved Christians.
But the Blessed Virgin Mary lived (in part) before the Holy Sacrifice, the Resurrection and the Descent of the Holy Spirit? How can she have been saved from sin?
The bible explicitly states that salvation occurred anticipating these events. For the prophet Simeon stated upon seeing the infant Jesus, "Mine eyes have seen thy salvation." How could this be? Whose salvation has he witnessed?
Mary's.
Some RC’s worship Mary . . . . it’s obvious.
Some don’t. That’s less obvious.
In dealing with Catholic beliefs about Mary one must remember he is dealing with people who follow popes who make pilgrimages to the grave on one who believes:
5. Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God and he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself. She is the glorious Mother of God the Son who chose to humble and conceal her during her lifetime in order to foster her humility. He called her “Woman” as if she were a stranger, although in his heart he esteemed and loved her above all men and angels. Mary is the sealed fountain and the faithful spouse of the Holy Spirit where only he may enter. She is the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe, not excluding his dwelling above the cherubim and seraphim. No creature, however pure, may enter there without being specially privileged.
6. I declare with the saints: Mary is the earthly paradise of Jesus Christ the new Adam, where he became man by the power of the Holy Spirit, in order to accomplish in her wonders beyond our understanding. She is the vast and divine world of God where unutterable marvels and beauties are to be found. She is the magnificence of the Almighty where he hid his only Son, as in his own bosom, and with him everything that is most excellent and precious. What great and hidden things the all- powerful God has done for this wonderful creature, as she herself had to confess in spite of her great humility, “The Almighty has done great things for me.” The world does not know these things because it is incapable and unworthy of knowing them.
7. The saints have said wonderful things of Mary, the holy City of God, and, as they themselves admit, they were never more eloquent and more pleased than when they spoke of her. And yet they maintain that the height of her merits rising up to the throne of the Godhead cannot be perceived; the breadth of her love which is wider than the earth cannot be measured; the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived; and the depths of her profound humility and all her virtues and graces cannot be sounded. What incomprehensible height! What indescribable breadth! What immeasurable greatness! What an impenetrable abyss!
Paul is talking to the Romans, not about the Blessed Virgin Mary!
>> This girl’s Heavenly visitation/vision is AT LEAST as valid as a long list of RC such. <<
Really? You mean like the last one approved by Rome, at Fatima*?
Was the little girl’s prophecy confirmed by the greatest war in the history of the Earth, WWII? Did she call forth thousands of people to see a sign of confirmation in the sky, who saw the sun appear to dance in the sky, and then crash to the ground drying up the rain-soaked Earth, so that the event was witnessed throughout a capital city, so that even the communist and secular newspapers reported the bizarre incident?
No, it was just a little girl having a dream which reflected their own beliefs. And you, commenting on things you have no knowledge of.
(* Another one, at Akita, which happened since then, has been approved by the local bishop; the tsunami struck the diocese of Akita, but on the wrong side of ridge to have caused great loss of life to the Catholics in Akita.)
Sheesh. What a stretch.
How did Christ escape it? He was born into that family too, wasn't He?
You honestly don't know that Christ escaped sin because He's God?
Besides, the purpose of this article isn’t to prove that Mary did not sin, but merely to refute arguments that she did.
The Catholic church claims it wrote the Bible. then it's not unreasonable to expect there to be Scriptural support for the belief that Mary was sinless and always virgin.
Where is it?
Is there something about *all have sinned* that is too hard for Catholics to understand?
Romans 3:21-31 21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
When and who? Because the radio preachers I've heard deal with the teaching of believers. I don't hear any attacking Mary doctrine or Catholicism.
Catholics so love to be martyrs and act as if everyone every where who's Protestant is *attacking* them, and those of us who are non-Catholics rarely ever hear it. If it's so prevalent somewhere, care to provide some names of those you hear and what their program names are so we can check it out?
We all receive God’s grace, or unmerited favor.
We couldn’t be saved without it.
*original sin*. Another Catholic construct.
Why? Where is that in Scripture?
The only requirement is that she be virgin until the birth of Christ.
If she had never sinned, she didn't need God to save her. She could have saved herself.
If she needed God to save her, it was because she had sinned and couldn't save herself.
Hi Metmom - you have been there before. The scripture are in a site I think you know. I do believe you art a christian with a different opinion. To you proably too vague these scriptures. It usually begins if this scripture verse says this then the other reads something to an effect. It can be like it would add to this. But If your interested. GO Hhttp://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.htmlERE :
>> The Catholic church claims it wrote the Bible. then it’s not unreasonable to expect there to be Scriptural support for the belief that Mary was sinless and always virgin. <<
It does. “Hail Mary, ‘Ketocharitoomene’.” Funny thing is, Protestant lexicons nearly universally lie and cut that down to merely, “charitoo.” “Ketocharitoomene” means “having been filled (completely) with grace.” Not something one would say to one who is still living under sentence of condemnation to Hell.
>> Is there something about *all have sinned* that is too hard for Catholics to understand? <<
Go back to the original article and read Charles Spurgeon’s commentary on the use of the word translated as “all.”
>> *original sin*. Another Catholic construct. <<
Well, yes, ALL true Christian doctrine is Catholic. But in this case, it is a constrict shared by Calvinist, Lutheran AND Anglican protestant traditions.
Why would Mary need to be sinless?
Come on... lets be serious ...
And the angel came in unto her and said Hail thou that art highly favoured the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women
to make graceful, endow with grace
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Short Definition: I favor, bestow freely on Definition: I favor, bestow freely on.
Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487 (xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).
to make graceful, endow with grace Original Word: χαριτόω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: charitoó Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o) Short Definition: I favor, bestow freely on Definition: I favor, bestow freely on. Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487 (xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).
Mary was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the human mother of Christ.. so indeed the blessing to her was "past tense" .
One does hear apologists address mariology but not "preachers" most are too busy feeding the sheep ...
Your truly saved when you soul man walks past the pearly gates and you can look back at the gates. So you know when the enemy can’t tempt you anymore. But in the mean time it’s still a trip. And temptatain does still happen for now. We are all pilgrims till we get to the final destination Heaven then we are truly Home. Saved in the house from the sinful worldly elements.
Wonder what throne Mary is sitting on in the above picture?
Uhh.... check the one that starts, "For all have sinned and fallen short..."
Did you catch that word "all" - ALL have sinned. The only person on earth that the scriptures indicate did NOT sin is Christ.
It looks like the only "ZING"ing that occurred was to your own FAIL.
Hoss
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