Saudi Arabian Wahhabi Mufti Says Iranians are Zoroastrian

AhulBayt News Agency ^ | 9 May 2011 | (Ahlul Bayt News Agency)

[Cronos]

shadowstrike: I must not have read the same description of the religion that y’all did, because the one that I read stated their belief that Jews and Christians were of the Devil, and needed to be wiped out.

Shadowstrike -- you're mixing up Zoroastrianism with Islam. Zoroastrianism is the religion of Cyrus the Great, the guy who, after conquering Babylon, allowed the Jews to go back home and funded rebuilding the temple.

odds and I have family who were Zoroastrian, we didn't just google up some random traces. And FARS is irani-american

You have made a mistake -- Zoroastrianism was the religion of the Magi who came to Jesus and it was earlier religion of Iran that was nearly eliminated when Islam came

[Shadowstrike]

no, I din’t confuse Islam for Zoroastrianism.

And, I didn’t just use Google. There are still things called Libraries. I actually read a book, and if I can get back there anytime soon I’ll give you the title and author of it.

If I’ve been misled, then I apologize.

[Cronos]

If I’ve been misled, then I apologize.

no worries -- we all make mistakes. But I would be interested in knowing where you got that statement from -- that is completely unlike Zoroastrians today and for the past 1300 years. As I said -- there was persecution under Shapur II for about a century I think or less, but there was no persecution of Jews at all and Christians post that period and after that period spread quite a lot in the Parthian Empire.

[odds]

There are several parts, some distinct, others interrelated in your last post. So, I’ll try to break in down in order to simplify, and, hopefully, avoid further convolution.

The exact term used was “Haber,” which referred to a religion which had a holiday in which fires were forbidden, and the Talmud speaks of emergency situations when the “Haberim” were persecuting Jews for lighting Hanuka candles, when it was permitted to light in your own home, rather than at a door adjacent to the street, as is preferred.

I’m not familiar with the term “Haber” or "Haberim" & have not come across it until now. My guess was that it is a Hebrew term? Maybe Turkish? It definitely is not a Persian or Indo-European word. “Haberim” is definitely not an Iranian (Persian) religion. However, in doing a quick search just now for "Haberism" (not "Haberim"), I found this bit of info - which seems to be related to the Jews, themselves.

I’m familiar with Hanukka (an 8 day long Jewish Festival of Light), which usually falls between late Nov to late Dec? Often coinciding with Christmas, and an ancient Iranian (not Zoroastrian) festival called “Yalda” (a Syric word). In Persian it is known as “Shab_e Cheleh (night of the 40th). Yalda (a pre Zoroastrian festival) leads me to the next part below...

These were people who worshiped the sun and the fire, a dualist theology, one good and one evil, perhaps a pre-Christian form of Manicheanism. Is this Zoroastrianism? Perhaps the name Haber refers to some other Persian religion. It was most definitely Persian, though, and still going strong in the post-Julian Roman Empire.

Keywords in this part of your post is “Sun” & then “dualist theology”. My immediate thought was, & now am convinced you were referring to “Mithraism”. No, it is not Zoroastrianism, nor Manicheanism. Manicheanism came centuries after Zoroastrianism, during Parthian (Arsacid) dynasty, was invented by an Arsacid “Iranian” (not Persian) called Mani. Its theology draws upon & mixes elements from Zoroastrianism, Christianity & Buddhism.

Mithraism or Mithra (aka in Persian as “Mehr”) was a very ancient Iranian deity (Sun god or god of light). It is considered Pagan by Zoroastrian (Gathic or core) standards & beliefs. It is, definitely, pre-Zoroastrian. Though still existed & had numerous followers, mainly among Aryan (by extension Persian) soldiers/warriors, during & to some extent, after Zoroaster.

An image of the ancient "Pagan" Indo-Aryan Sun-god “Mithra” (not the same as Zoroastrianism)

Yalda celebrations in Iran originate from Mithraism, but also incorporate those of Babylonians. Pre-Zoroaster & most definitely pre-Christ, were exported to Pagan Europe & Roman Empire. In Europe it was known as “Saturnali” or “Sol Invicta”. Nonetheless, I have so far not come across any historical account which states or even suggests “persecution of Jews during Hanukka celebrations” in Iran, during Yalda. Nor limiting Hanukka celebrations, in any way, in Iran, during Yalda celebrations.

A photo of a simple Yalda table (a syric word, known in Persian language as “Shab_e Cheleh” = Night of the 40th)

Other points worth mentioning:

Zoroastrianism is Not Zurvanism, Mazdakism, Mazdaism, Paganism, Hinduism, Manicheanism, Magism, Shi'ism, or any other that have borrowed elements from Zoroaster's teachings, and subsequently have misunderstood & represented a corrupt form of the original Faith & belief system taught by Zoroaster (an Aryan), himself, of the Vedic age (between 1500 to 500 BC).

Zoroaster, himself, taught pure Monotheism (Ahura Mazda). Zoroastrianism is strictly a Monotheistic belief system (religion) that puts heavy emphasis on ethics, not just morals. It is a reflective rather than prescriptive religion (IOW, it provides key guidelines for its followers & directly encourages them to seek knowledge & truth & reflect within these guidelines).

Zoroaster’s teachings also highly value & advocate free will & the use of one’s mental faculties in discerning between what is good and what is evil. Because thinking underlies our words & actions, and that our thoughts, words & actions have consequences (cause & effect). So, one must choose carefully, but is free to choose between good & evil. The concept of duality also refers to a progressive vs. regressive mind (thinking). Our thoughts, words & hence actions, which will consequently lead to either chaos or order (Durj vs. Asha). Zoroastrians only worship Mazda Ahura. They are Not “fire or sun-worshippers". Just as one can't say Christians are 'cross-worshippers' or Jews 'worship' the Tree of Life or Star of David.

Light, sun & fire are strictly symbolic in Zoroastrianism & represent qualities that are positive & optimistic, rather darkness which symbolically represents negativity, evil, death or a regressive mentality. The basic idea behind it is to think & say & do good so that we as human beings constantly strive towards "wholeness or perfection" (Haurvatat in Avestan language), that is to say closer to God. That's the continuous struggle between "Good and Evil" often associated with Zoroastrianism.

An image of Zoroaster (which is a Greek word) - known as Zarathushtra or Zartosht in modern Persian

Zoroaster, actually, rose against Mithraism or Mithra, because in Mithra, the oneness of God was not known to the people, plus the fact that in Mithra, sacrificing animals and also consumption of narcotics and intoxicating beverages (called Haoma) that desist the people from good reflection, were prevalent.

His adherents decided to follow his teachings & still do. But pre-Zoroastrian cultural celebrations remained. Though were very much modified & in some cases have been incorporated in ancient & present day Iranian (Persian) holidays & festivals.

If one wants to understand what Zoroaster taught, the only bona fide text to refer to is the Gathas -- translation of the Gathas - (hymns spoken by Zoroaster, himself). -- A basic overview of Zoroastrian concepts and beliefs -- Zoroastrian Faith & Festivals -- very good site with lots of information and photos – though it is written by a Parsi Zoroastrian (the community in India), not Iranian one in Iran.

[Cronos]

bookmark! Awesome, precise and detailed post, odds

[odds]

Some other pics

A modern day Zoroastrian Temple & Zoroastrian Mobeds "priests", in Tehran, Iran.

Zoroastrians do Not worship the Sun, Fire or any ‘object’. Fire is purely symbolic much like the Cross for Christians or the Star of David or Tree of Life in Judaism.

The Sacred Fire maintained in a metal fire urn is a source of Light, symbolically of God, which they face when praying.

In a couple of more modern, yet key Fire Temples in Iran, the Sacred Fire, in a metal urn, has been kept continuously alight for some 70 yrs. In a very ancient & main Fire Temple in Chak Chak, Yazd Province of Iran, the Sacred Fire in a metal urn, I was told, has been kept alight for nearly a 1000 yrs.

Zoroastrian priests in Kerman province of Iran during a key Zoroastrian holiday (Sadeh) -- the white cloth in front of their mouth & nose is for ‘purity’ purposes. They are usually worn, Only by the Zoroastrian mobeds ‘priests’, when they perform celebratory, religious rituals.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks odds.

In the January 2002 Fortean Times there's an article on the Griffon vulture problem.

Dead Parsees are carried on a simple bier to a ceremonial gate into the private jungle park of banyan and casarina trees in the city's posh Malabar Hill district, wich surrounds the five Towers of Silence... However, with an average of three Parsees dying every day, the six-odd vultures at the towers are overfed and unable to cope, although kites and other birds help out.

All Consuming Faith
by Debora MacKenzie
5 August 2000
New Scientist magazine

Griffon vultures are dying across India, apparently succumbing to a mysterious illness. Wildlife experts are becoming increasingly concerned about the viability of one species in particular. But for India's ancient Parsee religion the vultures' decline poses a more practical problem. Parsees, the religious descendants of the Zoroastrians of ancient Persia, rely on vultures to dispose of their dead, and the bodies are piling up.

[Cronos]

ping to a very informative set of posts by odds

[odds]

Thanks SC.

The use of Towers of Silence – “Dakhma” is now only practiced by Zoroastrians in India - and there too, other methods are being explored and used.

(N.B. - Parsee or Parsi Zoroastrians immigrated to India starting around early 8th century AD. So, some have retained their ancient practices, particularly Orthodox individuals/families. Parsis, in some instances, have also adopted Hindu or Indian practices, incorporating them into their own traditional Zoroastrian ones.)

Towers of Silence were traditionally built in desert areas, in Iran, centuries ago so as to avoid, for example, the problem you mentioned. This practice is no longer used. In Iran, Zoroastrians either bury the dead body in a coffin or use cremation.

Among the many factors that are contributing to the decline in the use of dakhmas by Zoroastrians are:

- the diaspora of Zoroastrians to countries where the practice is impractical or inappropriate,

- the encroachment of urban areas into the previously secluded dakhma locations,

- the excessive use of medical drugs for dying individuals - drugs that are toxic to birds, or

- a lack of birds in some locations, and

- a change in attitude among Zoroastrians (in India, i.e. the Parsis/Parsees)

The link to the webpage has very specific, accurate & thorough related information & has many photos on Towers of Silence. It is the same website (last link) I provided in post #44.

The website, in general, is very much worth exploring about Zoroastrianism, its festivals, practices, traditions, etc... and is regularly updated with upcoming events, and so forth.

A Zoroastrian cemetery in Yazd province – Iran

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks odds.

[odds]

Another point which is often misunderstood about Zoroastrianism, and, therefore misrepresented, is elements in nature.

Zoroastrian celebrations are closely linked to agricultural cycles and seasonal changes. Mostly for practical reasons, which existed at that time. Mind you, Zoroaster taught this during the Vedic age (between 1500 to 500 BC). Though holds true even now!

Zoroaster taught respect (not worship) for Ahura Mazda’s creations (human, animal, and plant) and elements (earth, wind, fire, and water) emphasizing that one must contribute or work towards harmony between man and nature.

Fire is seen as the only element in nature that cannot be contaminated, in addition to other positive qualities that Fire symbolically represents in Zoroastrianism, such as light, warmth, truth, and a symbol of divinity -- Significance of Fire

Later, these became part of the "pollution & purity" (aka "cleanliness") beliefs & traditions in Zoroastrianism.

So, many non-Parsi Zoroastrians have actually argued that the continued practice of Dakhma, by the Parsee/Parsi community in India, given the current impractical situation/circumstances, actually, goes against Zoroaster's teachings of living in "harmony with nature" as well as "pollution/purity" traditions.

[no-to-illegals]

Thanking both of you for the informative thread and information. Both of you are amazingly informative, and I would consider it an honor for each ping I receive from either of you.

[Cronos]

ah shucks. But seriously — I know a little bit about the history that I know, which tends to be Indo-european/Semitic. African Christian has given me a lot of insight into the realities in Africa — AC, perhaps you could ping n-t-i and I to any of your posts?

[AfricanChristian]

I will (I hope I don’t forget).

[odds]

Thought you might be interested in the info.

[PGalt]

WOW! Thank you very much for the ping, odds (and thanks to all posters on this thread). Great links. Fascinating/informative posts.

History/Education BUMP!

[odds]

Meant to ping you too in #55 - in case you were interested in the info on Zoroastrianism as well ...

[no-to-illegals]

Asking for pings, please.

[odds]

He won’t reply to you cuz he isn’t interested in anything that doesn’t support his pro-China stance. Read his previous FR comments.

[no-to-illegals]

Thanks odds. Did a few pings back and forth with. Have not read posting history. Thanks for the heads up. Will attempt to make time to read.