Posted on 05/10/2011 5:42:39 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper
After 33 years of debate, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has voted to change its constitution and allow openly gay people in same-sex relationships to be ordained as ministers, elders and deacons...
(Excerpt) Read more at goo.gl ...
Exactly, and the Cstholics are still paying the price. Only the Boy Scouts have stood their ground. The military is now caving to the rimmers and felchers. Disgusting!
***“I hope that going forward we can stay together and be faithful witnesses to the gospel of Jesus Christ,” he said.***
I guess their “staying together” will have to exclude the gospel about Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Church I attended before I moved knew this was coming 25 YEARS AGO....and left the PCUSA to become part of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) denominiation.
Anyone paying close attention knows that this has been an issue since the ‘70s....and as conservative individuals and conservative congregations left the PCUSA (not easy since they will typically SUE a congregation to keep the property....even though it is (and never was) deeded to the PCUSA) it has become more and more liberal.
This is not, mind you, because congregants were getting more liberal, rather that the conservatives left the dying denomination—and now the liberals now control the corpse.
The “property issue” is particularly galling—as very old congregations, where the PCUSA denomination has never provided a PENNY to acquire or maintain their property, are being sued for the ownership of it, due to some dubious “trust” agreements worked out in the 1970s (mainly to arm-twist congregations into accepting womens’ ordination). Many times courts defer to immoral/indefensible “Church law” allowing the denomination to claim ownership over property they will not use (accept to sell).
Same thing is happening with the Episcopalians, Methodists, and Lutherans.
Anyone who thinks the voluntary option about congregations accepting homosexual ordinations will remain long, is also delusional.
If I may comment, becareful. There will be those who will flee to the PCA, and then want to make it more liberal to conform.
A building is a building. My church that I grew up in is dying after 150 years, but it is only a building.
Leave the property, save your soul.
Exactly ...you know the definition of insanity?? They have just proved they are not only apostate.. but also insane
Leave the property, save your soul.
To me this is a bit like saying to Jews: Leave Israel, the Arabs will never give you peace....land is land, its better in California.
The Mainline denominations' legal claims on congregations properties are fallacious, and definitely a form of theft. It is wrong to go along with theft, period--and it sets a precedent for more theft from others in the future.
Fundamental to basic Trust law is that you cannot create a trust from ANOTHER's property. Trusts must originate with the property owner...otherwise it would be like the Lion's Club voting that in accordance with their bylaws, member John Jones' house, by popular vote, is now their clubhouse...as the majority of the club created a trust--and the vote was perfectly lawful by club rules.
Some point to 1 Cor. 6 as an absolute prohibition of lawsuits... However, I see no evidence that those doing the suing (the PCUSA) are actually Christians...and in any event, self-defense is most certainly scripturally allowed, and this is what defending-against-the-outright-THEFT of Church property amounts to. Why should Christians allow apostates to prosper at their expense?
Why should Christians allow the perversion, not only of sexual standards, but of the legal system? If evangelical Churches wimpily allow the Mainline denominations to win in these illegal, unethical lawsuits, we should not be surprised at worse (il)legal manipulations to come.
There’s lots and lots of PCA in Florida, I believe we’ve got four major Presbyteries plus the Korean Presbytery. Central Florida is close to some of the big names in the PCA too like R. C. Sproul. Encourage her to get out and not look back lest she be turned to salt.
First of all, it really depends on the corporate law that your church is set up under. It can get murky, but many denominations have the law set up that they get the property (the ELCA for example). Depending on the state the corporation is set up in, they are right.
Second, the building will not last for eternity, your soul will. I can understand being attached to a building, my family built my home church. But at the end of days, our inheritance is in heaven. Fighting for the building can alienate more people than it can save. I have seen it first hand.
ELCA has the weakest of all INTERNAL RULES making claims on a congregations property. As far as I know, as of now, follow the procedural rules, and, an ELCA congregation may leave with it's property intact.
None-the-less, all of the mainline's rules (not LAWs....)making claims on congregations' properties, are recent in origin, and, are based on the creation of a trust--where the denomination voted to create trusts on the property of the individual congregations.
An organization voting to create a trust of its individual members' properties is fundamentally at odds with basic common law:
Fundamental to basic Trust law is that you cannot create a trust from ANOTHER's property. Trusts must originate with the property owner...otherwise it would be like the Lion's Club voting that in accordance with their bylaws, member John Jones' house, by popular vote, is now their clubhouse...as the majority of the club created a trust--and the vote was perfectly lawful by club rules.
The reason courts have gone along with CHURCH DENOMINATION organizations' claims--the kind of claims which would be dismissed without prejudice for any other organization--is the claim that any interference in "internal government" of denominations amounts to and unconstitutional "excessive entanglement" of the government with religion. Of course the fact that it is the denominations' going-to-law to ASK for such entanglement is conveniently ignored.
I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that "neutral principles" of property law must be maintained--and if a denomination's name is not on the deed...(as they are with every Roman Catholic Church), they bear no legal claim on the property, if the congregation chooses to leave.
The very idea that a trust can be forced onto the property of an unwilling owner is contrary to basic principles of liberty and law.
Do the law suits cause problems within families and communities? Yes, but we must remember who is doing the suing.....and in giving them their way, the (future) problems of letting injustice to stand, letting it take root, will be worse.
ELCA has the weakest of all INTERNAL RULES making claims on a congregations property. As far as I know, as of now, follow the procedural rules, and, an ELCA congregation may leave with it's property intact.
None-the-less, all of the mainline's rules (not LAWs....)making claims on congregations' properties, are recent in origin, and, are based on the creation of a trust--where the denomination voted to create trusts on the property of the individual congregations.
An organization voting to create a trust of its individual members' properties is fundamentally at odds with basic common law:
Fundamental to basic Trust law is that you cannot create a trust from ANOTHER's property. Trusts must originate with the property owner...otherwise it would be like the Lion's Club voting that in accordance with their bylaws, member John Jones' house, by popular vote, is now their clubhouse...as the majority of the club created a trust--and the vote was perfectly lawful by club rules.
The reason courts have gone along with CHURCH DENOMINATION organizations' claims--the kind of claims which would be dismissed without prejudice for any other organization--is the claim that any interference in "internal government" of denominations amounts to and unconstitutional "excessive entanglement" of the government with religion. Of course the fact that it is the denominations' going-to-law to ASK for such entanglement is conveniently ignored.
I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that "neutral principles" of property law must be maintained--and if a denomination's name is not on the deed...(as they are with every Roman Catholic Church), they bear no legal claim on the property, if the congregation chooses to leave.
The very idea that a trust can be forced onto the property of an unwilling owner is contrary to basic principles of liberty and law.
Do the law suits cause problems within families and communities? Yes, but we must remember who is doing the suing.....and in giving them their way, the (future) problems of letting injustice to stand, letting it take root, will be worse.
I will tell you that in my (limited) experience, the corporation laws (not synod rules) come into play.
Every church is a legal corporation. That is more than just a way to get a tax free exemption.
A liberal Presbyterian USA member will stay with the PCUSA. If you're pro-choice and for gay marriage and gay pastors, you will stay there.
The PCUSA people look down on pro-life evangelicals. They think we're bigots.
Dr. Scarpetta: A liberal Presbyterian USA member will stay with the PCUSA. If you're pro-choice and for gay marriage and gay pastors, you will stay there.
The PCUSA people look down on pro-life evangelicals. They think we're bigots.
I think red is relating the ELCA problem and I think he is correct. People who are liberals, but not so completely liberal to have gay pastors will leave the PCUSA and may go to the PCA. They will be liberals at heart, yet not completely 100% gay "friendly". These are the ones to be aware of -- they can enter the church and then try to undermine it from within.
Red pointed out how the LCMS is preventing this from happening to them (I guess that may be the reason for LCMC instead of folks joining the LCMS) -- and is a valid lesson for us all to learn.
I understand what you're saying, but as far as I know there aren't that many PCA churches around for people to switch to. There isn't one near me.
Because someone was once a member of the PCUSA doesn't mean that he will automatically go to another church just because 'Presbyterian' is in the name, even if it's conservative.
Many people will just try to find a Bible-believing, pro-life, etc. church near their house.
If you want to raise your children in a church and be there for Sunday School, Wed. night Bible study, youth meetings, dinners, etc., commuting is inconvenient.
We were at my mother's house on Good Friday and found a church to take her to that is conservative and Bible-believing. She lives in a small town, and there was no PCA near her either. I had to look online and through the phone book to even find that one.
There are liberal Mainline churches all over, but you have to search to find a Bible-believing church, especially when you're not familiar with the area.
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