Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.
A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.
The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.
This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.
So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.
If Christ had real Brothers and Sister I find it totally amazing that not one was there to comfort His mother when as first born and only Child he put THE APOSTLE JOHN IN CHARGE OF HIS MOTHER LIKE A SON. THIS IS HIGHLY INSULTING TO KOSHER JEWISH BROTHERS AND SISTERS. DOES NOT MAKE SENSE AT ALL. No. Not one was there for there Mother while the brother Jesus hangs on a cross. That’s one of the strangest Family acts in the History of the world. This is the one fact that really nails it for me. I can’t see any sense to him having siblings. Consider God’s fifth commandement( Honor your mother...).
Yes, indeed. The ten "kings" spoken of in Daniel are being formed right now.
Wikileaks Exposes North American Integration Plot
Post 21 at the above link has a neat compilation of articles about how ten world regions are being formed right under everybody's nose.
Daniel 7:23-25: "He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time."
Daniel 7:8, "While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully...
In Scripture, "horns" always symbolize units of power. The "ten horns" are explained in Daniel 7:23-25 and Revelation 17:12 to be ten kings, and the whole vision is of the last form of Gentile world-power, a confederated ten-kingdom empire, most likely covering the whole Earth. Now, it's interesting to note, that on the year 1972, the Club of Rome proposed a plan to divide the whole world into 10 Regions.
There will be ten world regions, each led by a "king", who will be submissive to the Antichrist.
We are watching it all come together.
It appears that there is an attempt afoot to latch onto the term Sola Scriptura without actually bothering to understand what it means. Those who adhere to it use Scripture as the sole standard of proof of a belief, doctrine or tradition. Those beliefs, doctrines or traditions that fail to meet this solely Scriptural standard are not Biblical and are therefore in error and are not truly Christian.
So, let's return then to Harold Camping. Mr. Camping purported to know, via numerology apparently, that the Rapture was going to occur yesterday. Not only did he purport to know the day, he furthermore went into the hour.
Had Mr. Camping been an adherent of your much-derided Sola Scriptura, however, he would have been humbled and rebuked by the following Biblical passage, from Mark 13:32:
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
So, had Mr. Camping actually "held to" Sola Scriptura as you claim, he never would have made such a fool of himself, again (this isn't the first time he's done this), and he wouldn't have given the mainstream media and the enemies of Christianity such a source of gleeful mockery, going on weeks now.
I note that you join in the mockery yourself. Careful of that which you mock. Harold Camping was and is a fool at a minimum and a false prophet at worst. Neither are held in regard by the Bible. But, neither are mockers and scoffers.
my friend, if it wasn’t for “my religion”, you would not even have the Scriptures. “my religion” received the books originally, copied them by hand over the centuries, decided which books matched the Apostolic Tradition and therefore would go into the canon and finally put all the books together in the book you call The Bible. given all that, you really should show more respect for “my religion”.
I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.Looks like you've nullified through selective interpretation some major teachings of the New Testament.
I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.
For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
mocking? really, show me where i was mocking him.
as it relates to “sola scriptura”, both Baptists and Lutherans claim to follow it. one does not baptize infants, the other does, yet both claim “sola scriptura”
who is right or do we flip a coin?
no, the Gospel call goes out to Jews the same as the Irish, Persians, Chinese, Africans and Arabs. Paul was a Jew who was a believer, other Jews rejected Jesus and died in their sins. The issue is what do you do with Jesus, not what DNA is in your body.
Oh, let's just take the Vatican route and flip a coin. /s
BTW - Camping absolutely believes in sola scriptura. He just interprets the Bible differently than you.
this is the confusion that results from sola scriptura. once you reject the Church Jesus established and it’s teaching authority guided by the Holy Spirit, you in effect, make yourself the final authority on doctrine. so everyone reads the Scriptures and comes up with their own theories on what it means and you get 30,000 different “churches”, all claiming sola scriptura and all teaching conflicting doctrines.
the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion!!
still haven’t shown where i was mocking Camping, do you want to withdraw the accusation?
If “your religion” had held to the religion of it’s own church fathers, there would have been no need for a Reformation and no disunity of the body of believers.
Sola Scriptura arose in response to the bizarre and oftentimes moneygrubbing excesses and corruption then extant in “your religion.” These were cast off by the Reformers, who determined never again to accept unscriptural excess and corruption such as occurred in the medieval nightmare known as the Roman Catholic Church of the era.
The Scriptures were written by Jews who believed in Jesus Christ as Messiah. To engage in revisionist history by reaching back and claiming the Apostles as Roman Catholic is yet another bizarre excess. Hubris, that’s what it is. “Your religion” did not author the Bible. Those early Church Fathers who had a hand in compiling that same Bible are oftentimes refuted in the modern era by “your religion.”
This sort of thing is why Sola Scriptura ever became necessary. It’s also why it’s attacked by those who adhere to a religion that has veered from it’s own Apostolic and Scriptural roots.
Yes it has. We live in a fallen, evil world over which God tells us that Satan is the "god" of this age. God never promised Christians that He will always protect us from the wrath of the "god" of this age nor the people who reject Christ and therefore are, by default, his. In fact, He told us to prepare and be ready for troubles and "tribulations".
God does promise to protect those who know Him as Savior from God's wrath - otherwise known as the seven year Tribulation. There is Satan's wrath, which has been poured out on this earth since the Fall, and God's wrath, which will be poured out on this earth during the Tribulation.
The two are not one and the same.
God is finished with physical Israel, it is the spiritual Israel ( the Church ) that He is saving.
Then you have denied the following Scriptures:
"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.' This is what the Lord says: 'Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,' declares the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
"That night the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying: "Go and tell my servant David, 'This is what the Lord says: 'I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have cut off all your enemies from before you. Now I will make your name great, like the names of the greatest men of the earth. . . . Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.'" Nathan reported to reported to David all the words of this entire revelation" (2 Sam.7:4;9;16-17). .
"And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the Lord for ever" (1.Kgs.2:45).
"I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known your faithfulness to all generations. For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: your faithfulness shall you establish in the very heavens. I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn to David my servant, your seed will I establish for ever, and build up your throne to all generations (Psa.89:1-4).
"And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the Lord for ever" (1.Kgs.2:45).
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this" (Isa.9:6-7).
"And, behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and shall call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give to him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk.1:31-33).
Do you see anything in that Scripture about a Christian throne that Christ will be given and rule from forever? Doesn't sound like God is finished with Israel.
You also have to deny Zechariah 12:10, Zechariah 13:1, Romans 11:1, 2, Romans 11:11,12, and this, which states emphatically that God is not finished with Israel:
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:25-29)
You have to decide to go against most of the word of God to claim that God is finished with Israel. There is not one verse of Scripture which even hints that God is finished with Israel.
The question you should ask is why you aren’t in this Body?
You don't have to worry about me. I've known Christ as my Savior since I was a child. There is, however, this little nugget that should make you think a little bit:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1,2)
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
To deny Scripture is to deny the Word, Jesus Christ. It is not possible to be a Christian and deny Scripture. Anyone who denies Scripture is denying Jesus Christ.
Why aren't you part of the body of Christ?
my friend, what you call hubris, everyone else calls history.
i can understand you rejecting the Catholic Faith, people rejected Jesus when He walked the earth. what i can’t understand is how sola scriptura has led to 30,000 “churches”. why do we need the baptists, if we have the lutherans. the lutherans hold to sola scriptura, why can’t the baptists be lutheran?
no my friend, read John 17, this isn’t what Jesus prayed for.
the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.
The bottom line as spoken by you; the ultimate authority on all things Christian, or, wait, is it the “common knowledge” of which you speak?
Also, I need no proof reader, the proper word is devotion; although venerate, rervere, reverence are also proper, your other adjectives are improper and don’t in any way describe our relationship with Our Lord’s mother.
You continue to make that accusation with no evidence. Where is your proof that I said that Christ will return three times? If you're going to make the assertion, be prepared to back it up. Where is your proof?
a 19th century invention.
If that's what you believe, then have some courage and publicly, right on this forum, deny all the Rapture Scripture which is in this thread.
Have the little bit of guts it takes to stand by your statements. If the Rapture is a 19th century invention, then state loud and clear that the Scriptures which detail the Rapture and which predate the 19th century by a couple thousand years, are lies.
Go ahead. At least you'll earn a little respect. Stand by what you believe even if that means denying the Bible.
don’t you realize David was a type of Jesus and Jesus reigns on the throne of David?
please dear one, understand this:
OT = types and shadows
NT = fullfills OT
when you read the word Israel, you don’t have the spiritual eyes to know what you are reading. who does Jesus reign over on David’s throne, all who have been baptized into His Body or physical Jews?
i don’t deny any Scriptures, i just don’t believe these 19th century fantasies that you hold to.
the evidence is the pre-trib rapture itself.
how many times will Jesus physically leave heaven before the world is destroyed?
the Bible says once, how many times do you say?
3 comings of Jesus
1. born in bethlehem
2. the rapture
3. glorious appearance
there you have your evidence from your own thread you linked to, why do you deny it?
You show a lack of knowledge and/or belief of the scriptures...
Jesus had brothers and sisters...God's Holy word tells us that...Jesus' brothers and sisters did not believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh...There is no mention of his brothers and sisters showing up at the Crucifixion...
Jesus says believers are His brothers and sisters...The scriptures tell us that...
Jesus left his mother in the care of his most beloved Disciple, John...John agreed...Apparently Mary didn't disagree...
Doesn't make sense to you??? The bible doesn't make sense to anyone who choses not to believe what it says...
Was David a Jew? Had the Church been established in David's day? Was David a Jew or a Christian?
OT = types and shadows
So are you now going to try to claim that the Old Testament is either not true or irrelevant?
when you read the word Israel, you don’t have the spiritual eyes to know what you are reading. who does Jesus reign over on David’s throne, all who have been baptized into His Body or physical Jews?
I have the discernment given to me by the Holy Spirit to be able to read the Bible, not take it upon my self to deny or allegorize any of it, and to be truthful about what exactly it says.
The people who will live under the rule of Jesus Christ during the Millennial Kingdom will be those saved during the Church Age who are raptured before the Tribulation and return with Christ at His second coming, Tribulation saints who accepted Christ as Savior during the Tribulation and made it through alive and will be living in the Kingdom, working and repopulating the earth, and the remnant of Jews who come to Christ as a result of the Tribulation and will enjoy an exalted status as His chosen people during that time.
Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. (Ezekiel 36:28-30).
"Thus says the Lord of hosts, '{It will} yet {be} that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities. 'And the inhabitants of one will go to another saying, "Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts; I will also go." 'So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord.' "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you"'" (Zech. 8:20-23; cf. 1:17; 2:11-13; 8:1-3; Zeph. 3:11-20; Is. 1:26; 2:1-4).
"...and the peoples will stream to it, and many nations will come and say, "Come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach us about His ways and that we may walk in His paths. For from Zion will go forth the law, even the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He will judge between many peoples and render decisions for mighty distant nations. Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they train for war" (Micah 4:1-3; cf. Is. 2:13; 59:20-21; 60: 1-3; 5, 10, 11,-12, 14, 15-18; 61:4-9; 62:7; Zech. 14:9).
So not only will there be physical Jews living in the Millennial Kingdom, they will have an exalted position in that Kingdom, so much so that Gentiles will be asking to go to Jerusalem with them since "God is with (them)".
i don’t deny any Scriptures, i just don’t believe these 19th century fantasies that you hold to.
Does this mean you're getting ready to outright deny the Rapture Scripture in the link I gave you?
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