Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.
A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.
The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.
This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.
So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.
Would you agree for the Church this process started at Pentecost?
when one comes to faith
Could you say Born Again here or does that expression stay with baptism?
This is fun! What about Thomas,
John 20:24-29 (New International Version) Jesus Appears to Thomas 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
did he not come to faith due to a personal encounter with the Risen Lord Jesus Christ? Can this be a model for us today?
A neat thing about the disciples in the doubting Thomas story is that they practiced reflective listening as Our Lord Jesus did so well and many of us on FR could try to learn. They had their conviction that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen and they understood that Thomas did not share it yet. They did not yell Thomas you must believe us! They gave Thomas his space for a week. What Love they had for him and did not try to control him. Their words could not and would not convince him. Thomas had to meet the Lord Himself. This is a model for Christians today also. We must meet and have a relationship with our resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. It is possible and is my experience.
The Gospel for Quasimodogeniti (as newborn babes), the 1st Sunday after Easter, TLH p. 69.
Marbren, expressions like “personal encounter with Jesus” or “born again” are limited in their usefulness and, at best, best, express some aspect of the greater truth. The writers of the Holy Scriptures, whom the Holy Spirit used according to their gifts and experiences, all teach the same doctrines, Old Testament and New, but they teach them in words characteristic of themselves and appropriate to their time.
Thomas believed in no small measure because he, like the rest of the 12, had been brought up in a believing home, trained in the way he should go. He was one who recognized that Jesus was the Christ precisely because of what Jesus preached and did, that is, all that the prophets said He would do. Did he understand all things right away? No. Did he have his doubts, fears, pride etc. etc.? Of course, just as we all do. Did he have to contend with the devil, the world, and his own fleshly weaknesses and lusts? Of course, that is the lot of fallen man. Him Jesus chose to be one of the twelve and trained him in the course of the three and a half years of His ministry to be an apostle. One could say that Thomas attended a moving seminary with one Professor.
But just as Jesus so often said to His own people when He did some kind of miracle that they were not to tell anyone until “the Son of Man is risen from the dead,” (He didn’t do so with Gentiles, ever) so too would Thomas be unable to fully understand until the crucifixion and resurrection, until the Christ had done all things (”it is finished”) and thus brought to light the meaning and intent of the prophet Scriptures. Even then, the disciples had their problems, as do we all. Look at Matthew 28:16-17. It is shocking, and yet not: “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; BUT SOME DOUBTED.” Remember, this is the eleven!
The struggle we all have with the devil, the world, and our own flesh, of which the Apostle Paul spoke so eloquently, is very real. The solution is always repentance and faith, always Word and Sacrament, always still more meditation of the life-giving Word of God, the pure, clear fountain of Israel, as Luther often called it, whose entire content and purpose is to testify of Christ to the sin-darkened human heart and mind. (John 5:39)
Why vote, he wrote about it. His 'revelation' about Grace and Faith came from the Holy Spirit and an objective reading of the Scriptures. Brother Martin was baptized, he had been born again. If you submit he had a 'revelation' then it had to come from God as God is the source of 'revelation'. The Word was always before him, the Holy Spirit illuminated, for lack of a better term, the text so that he could understand it.
My question to you is this: What makes you think that Confessional Lutheranism isn't about a personal relationship? The words used in the Bible, brothers, sons of God, heirs, Father all describe relationships. Through Christ we are sons, God is our Father, though infinitely better than our earthly fathers. In Luther instruction for determining fitness for the Lord's Supper he emphasizes that the prospective communicant understand 'given and shed FOR YOU' (my emphasis). Sounds personal to me.
My LCMS experience. I have had 5 major LCMS Pastors that have had an influence on my life. Pastor #2 was the one who introduced me to my Lord Jesus Christ. Pastor #1, a wonderful humble man and very similar to most LCMS pastor's I have met, felt miracles and such were confined to the apostolic church, sort of like what Walther says. He was my Pastor through college and taught me Luther's Small Catechism.
From the snapshot of your experience, it would appear that they didn't tell you anything contrary to the 'personal relationship'. Your pastor in college sounds like a fine man. I'm guessing when he said miracles 'and such' were confined to the apostolic church he didn't restrain the Holy Spirit from performing them. The Word and Sacraments provide what a Christian needs to do what God commands, and likewise provides forgiveness when a Christian repents after failing to do what God commands. As I said before, the Great Commission doesn't have an expiration date on it, it remains in effect till Our Lord comes again. Are you about doing it or are you engaged in navel gazing over things beyond your control which are the province of God? He is handling His work, isn't it about time you got to the work assigned to you and all other Christians?
Miracles, signs and wonders, didn't not Jesus talk of these? Some would not believe even if a man rose from the dead. You believe Jesus rose from the dead, do still need further proof?
As to your experience, have you read the confessional documents? The catechism? If so, you wouldn't need to be told about a personal relationship, cuz it's in there. Just as it is in Scripture. You applaud Luther rightly for the Grace and Faith 'revelation' from Romans as a right exposition of the Apostles words. Read the rest of Romans after praying to the Holy Spirit to guide you.
I guess I am maybe navel gazing but it is fun! It is my witness to how awesome Our Lord Jesus Christ is. IMHO Talking about Our Lord Jesus Christ on FR is part of the Great Commission. We may be nearing an end to the church building time and church budgets.
We may be, but is that something over which you have control?
IMHO Talking about Our Lord Jesus Christ on FR is part of the Great Commission.
But what are you saying about Him? Is it Scriptural? Is it what He said He wanted? Are you assisting in bringing people to be baptized, or is it just fun?
I did write my seminex paper in college.
About what? Which side did you choose, are choosing?
My roomate, and current best friend, had tremendous influence on me. His spiritual growth is awesome and he is not even Lutheran.
That's great, what are his fruits of the Spirit? How do you and he measure that awesome growth?
Young people need to learn from experience.
I have news for you, that continues until you are dead. Better to learn from the experience of others, especially in the case of negative consequences.
I was a very proud self righteous Lutheran, as I mentioned, in my teenage years, thinking the only people saved went to my local church
From your earlier description of Pastor #1, this is also something you learned yourself. It didn't come from him or his preaching.
By the way, where is the Gospel in this vanity posting or perhaps the Law consistent with the Great Commission? How does this edify the reader knowing there are believers and more important unbelievers? Perhaps Job 38:1-4 might help.
It is my witness to how awesome Our Lord Jesus Christ is.
And this is where in the posting? Where in an objective reading of this posting and the same objective reading of Scripture is the basis of this posting found? Can you square your above quote with it?
Job 1:1 (King James Version) Job 1 1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
What does this verse tell you about Job? It sounds like me in my teenage years.
Was Job poor in spirit at the start of the book?
????
What does this verse tell you about Job? It sounds like me in my teenage years.
If you think that sounds like you as a teen-ager, you didn't learn anything from pastor #1. That you would say this now at 35 means you have learned little since. If Job had been poor in Spirit at the beginning of Job, how would he be: 'perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.'? Did you read 38:1-4? Can you give me a synopsis of it ie what does it mean to you?
Again I have to ask, Isn't Christ's resurrection from the dead a miracle enough for you? Laying aside what His death and resurrection means for you, just the physical truth of the matter. Objectively, not subjectively please.
BTW, the questions/comments in #730/731 are some of the ‘hard questions’ you said you wanted to talk about with an LCMS Lutheran.
When I was church treasurer for 6 years I had absolute control. Not one dime was spent without my approval.
But what are you saying about Him? Is it Scriptural? Is it what He said He wanted? Are you assisting in bringing people to be baptized, or is it just fun?
I hope it is God pleasing we all see through a glass dimly, FR is a good place to talk about Our Lord Jesus Christ. I have several FRiends who have taught me much about the Lord.
About what? Which side did you choose, are choosing?
I am sure being the self righteous Lutheran I was I was against seminex. ELCA to me is dead. Part of what I am exploring is the LCMS also dead. (sorry)
That's great, what are his fruits of the Spirit? How do you and he measure that awesome growth?
He was the first one to get me to think outside my preconceived notions. Maybe that is why I started drinking.
I have news for you, that continues until you are dead. Better to learn from the experience of others, especially in the case of negative consequences.
I totally agree! Once we are ripe God picks us and takes us home.
From your earlier description of Pastor #1, this is also something you learned yourself. It didn't come from him or his preaching.
You may be right, but what if it did, and how do you know?
I don't have to investigate. It's been thrown in the faces of Bible-believing Christians for years on this forum.
OK, so I’m a heretic?
Do you reject the wealth of Scripture on this thread which proves that God is not done with His chosen, covenant people, that He will purify them and bring them back into a relationship with Himself, and they will be saved?
Are you a heretic? That's something you have to ask yourself.
And a racist?
Do you reject what God has said about His chosen, covenant people?
If only you could call down fire from heaven and consume me ...
Uh, not interested. You're really not a victim.
You’ve told me all I need to know about dispensationalism.
You know nothing about dispensationalism.
Camping is a tool and is being used to turn people away from Scriptural truth. He is being used to achieve what open ridicule never could - millions of people rejecting the truth of the Biblical doctrine of the Rapture and ending up in hell for all eternity because Harold Camping gave those who are inclined to reject Scripture a perfect excuse to do so and to turn Scriptural truth into a cartoon.
Everyone, Including Jay Leno who said last night "what Is Jesus like the cable company?", is talking about the imminent return of Our Lord Jesus Christ because of Camping.
But in what context is he talking about it? Is he treating it like a joke?
The only thing I think of that Camping may have "accomplished" is to make the fact of the Rapture, when it actually does happen, even more horrifying for those who have rejected the doctrine. If people have themselves convinced that there is nothing to worry about, when is really does happen, it will be the shock of (almost) all eternity.
And that, I think, will drive many people to Christ for salvation. They'll have to go through the Tribulation and many will be executed, but they will, finally, be saved.
The rapture is the first resurrection. It is the defining point of the beginning of the great tribulation.
At the end of the tribulation, those caught up at the first resurrection return with Christ to rule for 1000 years. This is where Camping and all the replacementeers become so confused that all they can do is strike out in anger and derision at those that understand the word.
The first resurrection and the end of the universe are separated by 1000 years. That 1000 years is the “Day” of the Lord, as Peter so well exposed.
The replacementeers are the rejectionists!
“You know nothing about dispensationalism.”
You, apparently, would know best what I know.
You use the word "dispensation" to attempt to hide your rejection of Scripture.
Instead of having the courage to simply admit that your church teaches you that God is done with Israel and the church has replaced Israel, and the Scripture that contradicts that teaching is to be discarded, you fall into the tired trap of whining that "dispensationalists" this and "dispensationalists" that.
Even though no one who believes as you do has ever been able to credibly discredit dispensationalism, you still attempt to use it as a crutch to justify your ignoring Scripture.
Like I said, you know nothing of dispensationalism. And, by the way, the new hiding spot when one is needed when rejecting Scripture is Harold Camping.
You must not have gotten the memo.
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