My sense of honor prevents me from playing poker with the incapacitated. 
Drink up!
Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
“However, I don’t usually play such guessing games.”
Which comes from philo - “love”
and adelphoi - brethren.
Incidentally the same word, adelphoi, is the one used in Matthew 12 by Christ. We understand brothers in philadelphia to be broader than simply blood brothers, because that’s what the greek means.
In the same fashion, this is what Christ is saying here. That’s why adelphoi is used.
So you are right, Christ had a very specific idea that he was trying to get across. However, the idea he was using doesn’t back your interpretation.
WRONG again.
“MEANING IS AS USUALLY TRANSLATED BY FAIR-MINDED QUALITY TRANSLATORS”
Quix, the word is adelphoi. Adelphoi always means ‘brethren’. Are you telling me we should call it the city of blood brotherly love?
Are you telling me that Christ’s true brethren are not those who love the Lord?
Bingo!!
The ark was a type of Christ..trust me Joseph did not die when he made love to his wife..
It might be wise to look and see EXACTLY why God struck Uzzah and Ahio dead is not because Mary should not be touched..
Go back to numbers , there you will find that God made conditions on moving HIS dwelling place .
God ordered that the Ark was to be transported in a certain manner.. Kohathites, were the only priests who were allowed to move the tabernacle, however they were not allowed to see or touch holy items
God had ordered that poles went to be on either side of the Ark, it was to be carried by Kohathites on their shoulders.
Uzzah and Ahio violated the command of God by putting it on a cart pulled by oxen
They were blessed that God did not strike them dead the moment they broke His command.. but God showed Mercy and allowed them to take it by cart .When they reached out and grabbed the Ark that was their second violation of Gods command..
Ya know Catholics seem to want a goddess so much that they take types of Christ and force Mary into them..
Ya know, anti-Catholic Calvinists are so bitter they start to believe the lies they tell.
You want Scripture?
Matthew 18:
[1] At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
.
.
.
[18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[19] Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
[20] For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
"Seems pretty clear to me that Christ is appointing Peter to an office."
What office did He "appoint" Peter to that was exclusive to Peter?
Can I call them, or what?
I was thinking 2 Samuel 6 myself. Catholics refer to Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant, after all. Maybe that explains why Catholics believe that Mary remained a "perpetual virgin" her whole life.
-- Alex Murphy, April 15, 2011....when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled.
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah, and God struck him down there because of his error, and he died there beside the ark of God.
-- 2 Samuel 6:6-7
The Philistines took the ark to the temple of Dagon where it remained either in one of the five Philistine cities or in cities in Judah controlled by the Philistines for 20 years. After the successive sackings of the temple in Jerusalem by Egypt, Assyria and Chaldeans, there is no further mention of the ark being in the Temple.
You can collect your prize now.
Let me repeat: Perhaps it is time for the one qualified expert in the world to compile the one "perfect" Bible in the original languages and then, at the least, compile the "perfect" Bible in contemporary English. (That would be sufficient for a time.)
Yes, it is true "live" languages change over time and require fresh translation from the "old" from time to time. That is a fact of life.
Alas, poor Reggie. Thy intpinse rapture to tax Church and delate Her is nay young nor doth it draw coil. I couch not testy or a knap not landed, for front perpend Her grave yet.
Funny how the choice of Latin has been proven brilliant over time.
Yes! Absolutely brilliant!
This "brilliance" made it necessary to publish a "corrected" version of The Catechism Of The Catholic Church two years after publication in 1992.
It appears there is a paucity of Latin experts in the Vatican, especially those qualified to translate into other languages.
BTW, what "original" sources did Jerome use to compile the Latin Vulgate?
I'm going with 'yes'...
I don’t understand the obsession & fierce insistence that Mary did _not_ have other children. Why would further, normal, motherhood be so bad? What foundational tenets of doctrine be shaken?
Miracles and wonderment are great - and so is normal mundane life. I’d be dismayed if, after all the glorious joy that happened, Joseph were denied a husband’s rightful “knowledge” of his wife.
An extraordinary claim demanding extraordinary proof. Something that profound was recorded re: the Ark, because it was in fact extraordinary. That people interacting with her were not recorded as dying through sudden and extraordinary means upon contact is presumptive proof that it didn’t happen.
If one must follow convoluted reasoning to achieve an absurd conclusion, then the conclusion is probably wrong.
Well, what do you know. Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn once in a while.
That one qualified expert already exists. Its called the Magisterium. Your snipe about the revision of the Catechism only applies to translations of it from the editio typica, the inerrant reference copy.
"BTW, what "original" sources did Jerome use to compile the Latin Vulgate?"
The guidance of the Holy Spirit, the support of his Pope, a first hand knowledge of the language contemporaneous with the writings, the availability of the sub-scriptural writings of the Doctors and Fathers of the Church, a scholars education, and the scrutiny of the Magisterium.
(Fold Reggie, you can't win with the hand you were dealt on this one)
Does Christ give the keys to the kingdom of heaven to anyone else?
LOL - Is there anyone who doesn't believe the definition of "fair minded" is the one who agrees with him?
“Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
Unfortunately for you, adelphoi is the same word used here.
Again, the word is used to mean his brethren.
Wow, looks he really got you, OR..! The Magisterium is the “qualified expert”. And what is the Magisterium but an Expert Speculator with a Vatican t-shirt and Rome Decoder Ring?
My sense of honor prevents me from playing poker with the incapacitated.
Drink up!
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