Posted on 07/19/2011 4:53:25 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
Thank You and God Bless You GiovannaNicoletta!
This line from the OP is about as close as you can get, and is OK, because it does not identify the denominations.
For instance, many Christians today believe that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan and has inherited all of Israel’s blessings. Israel no longer serves any purpose in the world, they think, so when God talks about Israel in the New Testament He really means the Church. Therefore they misunderstand the Doctrine of Election, the Olivet Discourse, the Great Tribulation, and other New Testament teachings having to do with Israel.
I agree that the way Caucus designations are handled here is imperfect, but it's better than a truly open thread as those types of threads get derailed way too easily. Caucus threads are best for study and debate among friends over minor differences, not debate over the validity of the idea at all, so I can see the value of this type of thread.
Besides, there are too many variables within other denominations to blanket-label a denomination as one way or another. We all know that there's a remnant of Christians who desire to serve God faithfully in almost all Churches, so being wise about our accusations is expected of us by God, otherwise we may cause a Brother or Sister to stumble. It doesn't change what the denomination believes as a whole, but we still must be wise as serpents but gentle as doves, so to speak.
You’re welcome, marbren, and God bless you too dear friend!
I am very grateful for the option to have a caucus thread where those of like mind can have a civilized, edifying discussion without religion trolls and hijackers wrecking the thread with their agenda of casting doubt on the word of God.
For example, disagreements on when the Rapture will take place can occur among genuine believers in Christ, but the problem arises when the Scriptural, God-given doctrine of the Rapture is denied altogether. This happens frequently on the Religion forum, and it happens with almost all Scriptural doctrines, and it is good to have a mechanism where doctrine can be discussed and believers can fellowship without having to deal with those who don't believe God or His word and attempt to poison the well, so to speak.
I know exactly what you speak of Gio, and you're right that it happens with almost every doctrine out there but I think the saddest cases of them all are cases where the one doing the attacking is a known Brother or Sister who cannot or will not see that just because we believe a passage means what it says instead of what our Church or Denomination says it means, we're not deluded fools or heretics. This problem is especially rampant in threads that discus either the Dispensation Theory or anything to do with Catholicism. It causes me no small amount of pain to see people, who are known to me as true Brothers and Sisters in Christ, tearing each other apart over these doctrines. I know that there will be disagreements and I'm far from perfect in this, but I've seen arguments which devolved into outright personal attacks that I'm sure had our Enemy doubled over in side-splitting laughter at the fact that we do this to each other and then attempt to turn around and claim that we love the sinner but hate the sin.
Anyway, I've said my peace on the matter so let's get onto something a little more encouraging.
While I admit that I lean more towards a Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil position, there's a part of me that can see that the Pre-Wrath position could be seen as correct, the Scriptures state that we're not appointed to Wrath, not that we'll escape the troubles after all, as well as a way in which the Post-Trib position could be correct. For example, even though the restrainer is removed, what's to say that His presence would be removed from us if we were left here until the end? God could have us wait until the full Tribulation was over, but just be under His protection. I admit that this view is very hard to defend, but there is some defense for it.
My question though is this. If Pre-Wrath is correct, would this present a problem to Dispensation Theory's treatment of the 144K witnesses? I wouldn't think so, but am unsure because of the timing of when those witnesses are called out.
What do you two think?
IMHO the division between the Church and Israel is so neat and clean. The pre wrath rapture position (3 years or so into the tribulation) muddies this and muddies the imminent return of Christ in the clouds for the rapture throughout the last 2000 years. The pre wrath position is waiting for the antichrist.
I've heard others who were previously pre-Trib take a pre-wrath view; it is a relatively new theory and I have simply never come across any Scripture to support it.
The book of Revelation is written chronologically. The first seal judgment that Christ opens is the revealing of the Antichrist, and the beginning of his rule. This first seal is opened by Christ, and therefore the Tribulation judgments are initiated by Him, in chapter 6, verse 1.
The 144,000 Jewish evangelists do not come on the scene until chapter 7. The Church is not mentioned in Revelation after chapter 4, so the apostasia Paul spoke of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has already happened. The Church has been removed, and the job of spreading the Gospel has been given to the 144,000 and to angels.
There is no doubt that the Church will be gone for the entire seven years of the Tribulation. There is no Scripture which indicates that we will go through the judgment that God says is for those who reject His Son, and every promise is given to the Bride that we will not have to go through any of God's wrath. Our judgment was taken care of at the Cross. This judgment, the judgment of the Tribulation, is for those who do not know Christ.
This is the point where I was stumbling in regards to Pre-Wrath. I was under the impression that Revelation was written chronologically, but chronologically from each point of view so that it wasn't necessarily completely chronological. For example, when John is writing about the events on Earth, those events are in chronological order and when he's writing about events in Heaven, those events are in chronological order, but it's not positively known that the entire book is written in chronological order. That's the source of my confusion on this matter and the reason I was looking into the Pre-Wrath position as being a possible contender. What portion of Scripture are you using to determine that all of Revelation is in chronological order?
I want to go back and touch on this point. I never said that the Bride would be under the Wrath of God, I agree with you there, but my question is what portion of the Tribulation is considered the Wrath of God and what portion of it is considered the Wrath of Satan? The teaching that I've always heard, which tends to support the Pre-Wrath position, is that only the latter 3.5 years is the Wrath of God being poured out on an unbelieving world. The first 3.5 years is actually the Wrath of Satan being poured out on the Jews. I guess my question is, where in the Tribulation do you see God's Wrath beginning? I take it from what you posted earlier that you see it from the very beginning, but that's not what I've always been taught so I want to hear how you've come to your conclusion.
I agree completely with your post. The Bible is divided dispensationally. Romans through Philemon is written for the Church the Body of Christ, the dispensation of the Grace of God, and ends with the rapture of the church. Notice the next book is Hebrews. Written to..who...the Hebrews. The middle wall of partition is gone, and God is once again dealing with Jews and Gentiles on separate basis. Next comes James..written to the 12 tribes..then Peter..written to the strangers scattered...then John, written to the elect lady and her children, then Jude, written to those contending for the faith, then Revelation..the second coming of Christ the Messiah and setting up of His kingdom.
The only way to explain this change in God's attention back to Israel is that the Church the Body of Christ has been raptured. And Daniel's final week is beginning. The Book of Hebrews, like the Book of Acts, is a transitional Book. Acts transitioned from Israel to Jews and Gentiles as one Body. Hebrews transitions back to Israel. And God's dealing with her.
He has to describe things in heaven and things on earth all happening at the same time. So from time to time he’ll “stop the action” to show us everything that’s going on. For example Rev. 17 is really an expansion of Rev. 14:8, and Rev.18 gives us the detail of Rev. 16:19.
I believe that it is significant that the Church is not mentioned after chapter four, and then only in chapter 19 when the Church is described as returning to earth with Christ. The chapters beginning in chapter six up to chapter 19 detail the events of the Tribulation. I think Jesus had John write the book this way as a form of assurance to His bride that we would not be on earth for the Tribulation.
I also believe that the judgments themselves are given chronologically. Each group of judgments is worse than the previous group.
Here is an outline which summarizes the chronology and sequence of Revelation:
The Chronological and Sequential Structure of the Book of Revelation
There is no part of the Tribulation that is the wrath of Satan. Jesus Christ opens the first seal, and each and every bit of wrath and judgment are purely and only that of Jesus Christ. Now Jesus uses the Antichrist, who will eventually be possessed by Satan, to carry out many of the judgments, but God has used evil men throughout history for judgment.
God's purpose in bringing the seven year Tribulation on earth is to fulfill His promises to Israel and purge the earth prior to His setting up the Millennial Kingdom. Satan would not willingly participate in assisting God in preparing the earth for setting up His kingdom.
Revelation 5:1-14 is the prelude to the Tribulation in which Jesus Christ is presented as the Lamb, Who is the only worthy One, who has the authority and position to open the seven sealed books. The seven sealed books hold the coming judgments of God. Only Christ is worthy to open and beginning the our pouring of God's wrath on the earth.
It is the Lamb Himself, who opens the first seal (Rev. 6:1) and thus initiates the beginning of the seven years of the Tribulation. Revelation 5:4 plainly says that no man could open the book. Further, Revelation 6:3, states that "He" referring to the Lamb of verse 6:1, and verses 5, 7, 9, and 12 continues in opening each of the subsequent Seal Judgments. Clearly, these are not judgments initiated by man or Antichrist or Satan, but by the Worthy Lamb of Chapter 5. It is Jesus Christ who opens each of the seals in the first half of the Tribulation and brings God's wrath on the earth. Yes, it is the Antichrist who persecutes God's people and all peoples on earth, but he does so at the discretion of Jesus Christ. God will be using the Antichrist as the instrument of His wrath. The Antichrist could do nothing unless he was allowed by God to do so.
So, all of the judgments and wrath are that of God, not Satan.
The teaching that I've always heard, which tends to support the Pre-Wrath position, is that only the latter 3.5 years is the Wrath of God being poured out on an unbelieving world. The first 3.5 years is actually the Wrath of Satan being poured out on the Jews. I guess my question is, where in the Tribulation do you see God's Wrath beginning? I take it from what you posted earlier that you see it from the very beginning, but that's not what I've always been taught so I want to hear how you've come to your conclusion.
As we see from Revelation, the entire seven years are the wrath and judgment of God. It is Jesus Christ who begins the seven year Tribulation and the outpouring of God's wrath as Revelation 6 reveals. The beginning of God's wrath is in His allowing the Riders of the Four Horsemen to rain their various destructions on the earth. In the beginning it is the Lamb who opens the first seal and unleashes the Antichrist, the first horseman riding a white horse upon the earth. The first rider riding a white horse and wearing a crown is allowed to go forth to conquer the world. This is a picture of the Antichrist who will rise to power on earth as a great political leader and present himself as a savior to the world.
It is God, Who after the Rapture stops the present retraining work of the Holy Spirit and allows Satan to go forth bringing destruction on humankind through his control of the Antichrist. In our present dispensation of the Church Age, the Holy Spirit is preventing or restraining Satan from unleashing his destructive wishes on the earth.
Paul reveals this in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-15:
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:7-12)
God's plan is that He will use Satan and the Antichrist to bring His judgment on the earth during the seven year Tribulation. The restraining work of the Holy Spirit, which keeps him in check presently, will end as the seven years begin. Satan will then be allowed to rein destruction on the earth through the Antichrist. It is God who initiates the destruction on earth by allowing Satan and the Antichrist to work unrestrained. It is God who is now restraining Satan and this clearly shows that it is the action of God that allows him to rise to power and thus bring destruction to this present age.
I see the wrath of God beginning at the very start of the Tribulation.
GiovannaNicoletta, I Agree. I do not believe anything you have posted on FR has caused caution in my spirit when I read it.
This Religion Forum thread is labeled “Dispensational Caucus” meaning if you are not currently, actively dispensationalist then do not post on this thread.
Save for later reading..Thanks for posting this
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