Posted on 07/26/2011 6:38:10 AM PDT by marshmallow
Article can not be posted due to copyright issues but if you clink on this link you can read all about it.
After reading your post, I did some research on the net regarding the neurological phenomena that can occur as a result. Most people don't remember anything, but those who do often have hallucinations which, as with dreams, are based on bits of information we've garnered from elsewhere. Sometimes they are religious in nature, sometimes they are not.
I did read of a few instances where people could report things that happened in the operating room while they were in circulatory arrest. Clearly, the brain does not stop working, and the person is not dead.
I’m sorry to have to explain this to you, but science does not yet know exactly what is a dream. When the human braqin is dreaming, the human sou/spirit may be also ‘doing’ something which science has yet to even catch a flicker of. But of course, scientists have been taught/trained to ignore anything which they have not a measure or calculation for. That humans have yet to figure out a way to quantitize and then measure what is evident as now beyond science methodoogy does not mean that the soul/spirit does not exist in a reality which science has yet to address. Your explanation for your absolute is rejected. Now, I will accept that you expressed your opinion, as I am now only expressing my opinion. But you have not a shred to substantiate your absolute assertion.
I’m sorry to have to explain this to you, but science does not yet know exactly what is a dream. When the human braqin is dreaming, the human sou/spirit may be also ‘doing’ something which science has yet to even catch a flicker of. But of course, scientists have been taught/trained to ignore anything which they have not a measure or calculation for. That humans have yet to figure out a way to quantitize and then measure what is evident as now beyond science methodoogy does not mean that the soul/spirit does not exist in a reality which science has yet to address. Your explanation for your absolute is rejected. Now, I will accept that you expressed your opinion, as I am now only expressing my opinion. But you have not a shred to substantiate your absolute assertion.
As I said I am not going to speculate on this man’s vision.
However, you still don’t seem to get what I am saying. “Clearly, the brain does not stop working, and the person is not dead.” Define dead. There are no vital signs - no blood pressure, heart rate, etc. The body temp is 17 degrees Celsius. EEGs are done that show total supression of brain waves & activity. I’m not sure why you feel the brain hasn’t stopped working. We supress it to where we cannot detect activity with a bispectral index. Could the patient be dreaming? I’d say unlikely; but your assertion that they’re not “dead” is pretty much of a stretch. You have no idea what went on during this man’s surgery.
I’ve been under general anesthesia five times and my experience has always been as you described. No dreams, no visions, no sense of elapsed time. That being said, I accept that others may have experienced something different during their times under general anesthesia and/or circulatory arrest. One of the interesting things about articles of faith and belief in life after death is that they can’t be proven or disproven through scientific means.
“They don’t stop the circulation in the body to do heart surgery.” As the poster above who provides anesthesia for the very procedures you claim do not happen has pointed out (see post #7 above), you are wrong but too stubborn to budge from your error.
Nobody ever has an out-of-body experience where they end up in hell, or purgatory and then return.
Why? I suspect it’s because their mind “sees” what it wants to see.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Not true.
Apparently "He" can't reveal some of his dream.
He aludes to some restriction on telling us "Everything" about his dream.
Apparently he saw Heaven and Purgatory in his dream, with all sorts of lost souls, hundreds in fact, around him.
I had one wild azz dream when I nearly died in an operation 14 years ago. But, I'm guessing I really wasn't inside the Death Star, I really can't fly between decks, I didn't really have a light saber, that I was fighting and winning, etc.
The only dream I ever had that 100% real and that I had experienced it but, it was just that - A Dream.
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Actually at least one fellow did write a book detailing a short period he spent viewing hell.
If these reports stemmed just from bizarre neurological responses to anesthesia, as some claim, they would not all have such consistency.
“If these reports stemmed just from bizarre neurological responses to anesthesia, as some claim, they would not all have such consistency.”
Why not? If the religious and cultural teachings about heaven are similar - and they are - you would expect such dreams to be consistent. If you anesthetize a human brain that is pretty much consistent with every other human brain, then you would expect consistency.
“Not true.”
Ok, so there was at least one person honest with themselves about their life before they went under the knife.....and his/her dreams reflected the cultural references that they were taught about hell.
Yes, I was wrong. See my post 21 and do some research of your own. But no, you'd rather jump on the bandwagon than admit that what this guy experienced was a hallucination.
Go head, be gullible. There are lots of people out there who fall for this kind of stuff.
Yes, that's why people can report events that occurred in the operating room while their circulation was stopped.
Could the patient be dreaming? I’d say unlikely.
On the contrary, very likely based on the research I did after your post. Hallucinations, some religious some not, are common (except in cases where the person doesn't remember anything at all or has reported events as they unfolded in the operating room).
No doubt that stuff happens to some people.
I have enough “shining” moments to convince me that there is another world after death.
I am sure the skeptics could explain most of them, and I do not discuss them with anyone other than my wife.
I think these are great stories, but I don’t think I need to drop money on a book to describe it.
When it comes to surgery, I am more concerned about getting the needle and then not going to sleep. That would suck. I guess the vision then would be dollar signs.
Are you saying a dream could be something actually occurring to someone because they spontaneously died and then as spontaneously came back to life during sleep? Wow, I didn't know George Clooney cared so much. :)
Your explanation for your absolute is rejected.
You are, of course, free to believe as you wish. I don't believe this guy visited heaven or purgatory, so of course won't be wasting money on the book. I'd rather read the scriptures from God. In them, I know that the truth is given.
But do you believe that with God all things are possible and perhaps this person really did see heaven and Purgatory and then get sent back to earth?
Would you believe it if you read it from a doctor’s pen? (BTW, I don’t think he is Catholic — and he has medical explanations too.)??
Then read the book I posted — It’s probably in your public library.
Yes, I did. Did you read mine?
Consistency?
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