Posted on 10/15/2011 9:50:41 AM PDT by ReformationFan
why would anyone listen to someone on a “religion” thread when that person admits they don’t know who God is???
any opinion on the Holy Spirit or is that also you don’t need to know?
And what do you think putting the TRUTH in front of them does? Do you expect instant conversion right there in my living room? Or for that matter, who am I to say I converted any one? Is that not the job of YHVH to turn hearts back to HIM? Are we not merely HIS servant messengers who are not to boast of anything we do lest we spoil the fruit of HIS tree? Is not all the honor glory & praise suppose to go to HIM in order to restore HIS good name?
You are coming across as though Mormons are enemies. Did not YHVH tells us to love our enemies? Love is not an emotion in YHVH's dictionary, it is an action based on pure & complete trust in HIM. I have no idea if any who comes through my door has left the LDS as rarely are the members of the group that comes the same. And I am fine with that. However to reject anyone who knocks on the door because of denominational Scriptural differences is rejecting the opportunity given to them by YHVH to speak HIS WORD. I am not willing to denyt HIM HIS chance to have HIS Truth revealed to anyone, especially LDS members who travel quite far to get to my door.
I don’t agree about the monotone, Reaganaut. True, there is little in the way of bombast or shouting, but you don’t need the dramatic touch to teach the Word of God.
In my experience the talks at general conference are inspired, perceptive and varied in their topics. A common thread, however is the testimony and witness of the divinity and reality of Jesus Christ.
Best,
Normany
reaganaut is correct, the Church does not accept Mormons as Christian.
Sounds like mormons practice similar ‘chants’ that those who practice Eastern religions do during their meditation rituals...and your right... it is a form of hypnotic preparation to zone people out in order to begin their programming, though of course the people haven’t a clue...nor do most care to check out what exactly they are doing....but by the time they’re this far into the cult they’ve already decided to trust thier leaders or instructors..unfortunately with their very mind and soul.
Too few people realize exactly “who” they are chanting to, Jesuss says no repetition....but that too falls on deaf ears.
Mormons deliberately wear out their members initially...it’s a wearing down of the natural resistance God instills in us...I’m sure most can reacall moments when they wondered what exactly they had gotten themselves into...and the inner discomfort nudging them to RUN! Oftentimes surpressed with the idea they just need to get thru this....when they go thru these ungodly rituals.
In some respects it’s like someone cheating on their mates...there’s fear, there’s inner turmoil, there’s with this an element of excitement.......even though everything within them is shouting to stop and run..danger ahead...they ignore it usually because there’s an audiance of one form or another....pride gets in the way...or thinking they really don’t believe this they are just going thru the momtions in order to get to the other side so they continue the sense of belonging.
Mormons are master manipulators at making people think they belong with them...when in reality it’s all about another patsy they can and will reach into their pockets for the revenues to sustain those at the top....who are bent at building their coperate entity and all the perks that affords them.
Patlin...I did not say that he came to form a new church...nor do I believe that those who believe in Messiah Jesus have replaced the Jewish people.
I do believe, however, that God in his great love and mercy for man chose to include we Gentiles ‘with’ Jewish believers to make for himself ‘one people’ who love and adore Him.
That’s a loving God..and it is He who I serve.
Yet it was not through Yah’shua Messiah that gentiles were welcomed into the flock, thus religious doctrine that says that Messiah came for pagan gentiles because they had never before been welcome to join the House of YHVH is misleading and out right heresy.
Exodus 12:40 Now the sojourn of the children of Israel who lived in Egypt[a]was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years—on that very same day—it came to pass that all the armies of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt. 42 It is a night of solemn observance to the LORD for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. This is that night of the LORD, a solemn observance for all the children of Israel throughout their generations... 48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. 49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.”
50 Thus all the children of Israel did; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so they did.
As written in Scripture, at the time of the Exodus from Egypt YHVH has never rejected any pagan gentile but HE has always required the gentile to assimilate to HIS House rules, not bring theirs into HIS. The term Jew was 1st established as a religious label for the house of Judah because it was they that YHVH gave the responsibility to preserve the integrity of HIS TORAH. And I must say, they have done an awesome job. Perfect no, but the integrity is still in tact.
I know of no Christians who claim that Christ came from gentiles.... rather that Jesus came from the lineage of the Jews...He was a Jew.
I am trying to determine which Messianic Jews Teachings you are referencing in your posts..... for there are many branches which have shot off from their intial beginnings. Your teachings center primarily as referencing specifical y Jesus as Yah'shua with a strong attachment to the Torah as central to your beliefs. There are several as this with in the Messianic Jews arena....though I understand you do not claim yourself as one...but the teachings you're given are very much so.
Neither do I. What I said is Christian religious doctrine teaches that Yah’shua Messiah came to form a new church(ecclesia) of put of covenant pagan gentiles who only have to profess to believe He is the Messiah and are not subject to that which He is. They teach that which He is, Torah, is only for Jews there by keeping their flock out of Covenant.
I am trying to determine which Messianic Jews Teachings you are referencing
I am not referencing any Messianic Jewish teaching whatsoever. The Messianic have their own religious doctrinal issues I care not to join in and being labeled a member of any religious denomination is not a requirement for salvation. Now don't get me wrong, I do miss the weekly in person fellowship however I am completely at peace until a congregation is formed in my area that doesn't feel the need for man made religious doctrine.
Your teachings center primarily as referencing specifically Jesus as Yah’shua with a strong attachment to the Torah as central to your beliefs
No, it is not my teaching that references the strong attachment of Yah’shua to the Torah as being central. It comes straight out of Scripture from YHVH Himself. The most prominent example is John 1:1-3,14 Yah’shua was & is the Torah, he has been since the beginning and will remain so to the end.
YHVH selected the Hebrew Abraham for a reason. Hebrew means crossed over. Abraham was an out of Covenant gentile when YHVH chose him & called him out. Why was Abraham's seed selected for the Covenant of the Promise Paul speaks of in Romans? Genesis 26:5; Romans 4:3-13 And thus Scriptural proof that pagan gentiles welcome from the beginning.
Torah was only written down at Mt Sinai, but it had always been from the beginning. It was only due to the fact that YHVH’s children kept forgetting & ignoring the spoken that it even had to be written down in the 1st place. Thus from Mt Sinai forward to the end of the age, which we are still in to this day, there would no excuse not to know the instructions in order to keep in Covenant. Especially in today's times when Bibles are so ready available & affordable.
The Christian doctrine I adhere to has nothing whatsoever to do with what you speak of that “Christian Doctrine teaches”....
Jesus didn’t come to form a “new” church....He came to redeem man...to reconcile them to God...Both Jew and Gentile. Those who trust Jesus for their salvation, from the penalty of sin which He endured for them...They become ‘the body’ of believers, which is His church, and of which Jesus is the head and the chief cornerstone. Therefore we are subject to Him and His authority...both Jew and Gentile believer.
As for you awaiting for a “group” to form hopefully you will find a “body” of true believers and once more the fellowhip your lacking currently... for Jesus said we are not to foresake the gathering of ourselves together as some do and shipwreck their faith.
But as much as you state you do not belong to a particular denomination your beliefs and the statements you make her do adhere to specific ones that are out there who center on the Torah...just as you stated.
In Hebrew the “Alef-Tov” "Bet-Tav" (Lev) is the definition of the heart of YHVH. Genesis begins with the Alef Bet and Deuteronomy ends with the Tov. The Torah is the heart of YHVH in which YHVH declared the end from the beginning.
“... for Jesus said we are not to foresake the gathering of ourselves together as some do and shipwreck their faith.” Um, was that Paul who stated that, not Jesus?
President Gordon Hinckley speaking on the identity of the Mormon Jesus back in 1998. “In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ (He said) ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times...In this dispensation, the Lord has declared that this Church is “the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth.’” - LDS Church News Archives, Saturday, June 20, 1998 reporting on Hinckley’s speech to 6,600 missionaries assembled in Paris."We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of his [Christ's] blood; but the truth is that that blood has no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action." [ LDS Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 299, 1859]
"Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee...We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed [children] before he was crucified (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 82).
"There was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that non less a person that Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha an the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it." (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 259).In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
As a devoted LDS inc follower, do you agree with your 'prophets and apostles', Normandy? Come on, don't try to snow us with Lorenzo's little 'couplet' the way 'Prophet' Hinckley tried to do.
So you do your best to keep the Sabbath rest YHVH made for man as well as the Appointed Holy Convocations YHVH set aside for HIS children? You do your best to learn all HIS instructions for HIS children that are written in the Torah in order to obey them as every faithful & trusting child does? You do know that the Torah is the substance of the foundation cornerstone?
we are not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together
I do not forsake, I worship live online every Sabbath, chat & all, but it is not the same as face to face.
But as much as you state you do not belong to a particular denomination
Actually I am still listed on the rolls of our small country Lutheran church (ELCA) & do fellowship with the members, just not during their Sunday worship & man made religious convocations that they replaced for YHVH’s.
Your response does not appear to relate in any way to my comment and the topic of our conversation about the church, and this from from your prior comment, nor have you repsonded to who the body of believers are, in fact you went off on a tagent about the sabbath????
Come on patlin...can you not address what we’ve been disgusing or are you simply looking for a springboard to express your outrage toward those who differ, or are you willing to exchange reasonable debate?
However..to comment now on that which you did respond...
As Christians we recognize that with out the Law (torah) wen would not know what sin is unless there was a Law which says.. do not or do so....it is a teacher that instructs us before we come to Christ, and which ultimately declares us all guilty before God....for as God says...’If you sin in one of the least of these commandments you are guilty of them all.” Which therefore makes us all guilty before Him.
But of course then comes Jesus our Messiah...who completely fulfilled the Law on our behalf, and now lives His life thru us so that our walk with Him is one of the fellowship of faith...”The just shall LIVE by Faith....thus by, and thru, and In Him, we can rely and trust Him to lead us in His path of righteousness and that not of ourselves.
You are the one who asked about my faith, not I you and I have been completely honest as to the current status of my faith even though my name remains on the rolls of the our Lutheran church. Can one not have hope that their church will “come out of her” as YHVH & Yah’shua commanded?
From the time I entered this thread I have simply & consistently pointed out the hypocrisy of one religious doctrine condemning another when their own religious doctrine is anything but pure.
Jesus our Messiah...who completely fulfilled the Law
You obviously only know what Yah’shua meant when he said fulfilled because of what has been taught to you, not by any act on your part to seek what it truly means. You might want to look up in a Hebrew lexicon what the word “believe” is, as in Abraham believed therefore righteousness was counted to him. It is the exact same spelling of the word “establish”; not abolish. Thus the reason Yah’shua said, “if you love me, keep MY Commandments”. He was the Commandments made flesh thus He only spoke the WORD of His Father, YHVH, and thus the great deception continues.
How did sin enter the world? Through lies & deception by perverting the Torah of YHVH and convincing Eve she would not die if she ate from the tree that YHVH had specifically said was off limits & then Eve convincing Adam to partake in the sin. From that moment on, haSatan has been working his tail off to destroy that which keeps YHVH’s house in order & free from chaos that causes destruction. To pick away at the cornerstone of the foundation of YHVH’s House which is Torah. I mean really, the church is more worried about offending the government than it is about offending the great Elohim of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. Does that make any sense to you? It doesn't me.
Well, a good look at society today, “in the church”, proves that haSatan’s agenda is almost complete.
So pardon the bluntness, but the hypocrisy of so-called righteous religious doctrines that are anything but righteous condemning another is not only offensive to me but more importantly, this condemning is of great offense to YHVH. Why? Because that belongs to HIM, not man.
As Christians we recognize that with out the Law (Torah) men would not know what sin is unless there was a Law which says.. do not or do so
One final point and if you could respond cordially it would be appreciated. If by Yah’shua death, the Torah(Law) that defines sin was also taken away, then what is the continuing purpose of preaching Messiah if that which defines sin no longer exists. How can YHVH hold judgment against anyone, especially from my generation who entered the world centuries after the Torah was abolished, be held accountable for that which does not exist? If we are convicted of sin, it can only be in the flesh due to the law of man not YHVH. Furthermore, according to this logic, even Islam is in covenant with YHVH because the Law of worshiping false gods was also abolished when Yah’shua was crucified.
Now do you see the hypocrisy of any religious doctrine condemning another? You do realize that Torah is all the commands, statutes and instructions for daily living from Genesis through Deuteronomy not just the 10 that are popular by not followed don't you? In Exodus 20, YHVH didn't stop at 10 because HE wanted to, HE stopped out of grace & kindness because HIS children were afraid. Thus the reason for the High priest, the priesthood of the flesh; which by the way the High Priesthood WAS abolished the moment Yah'shua Messiah's blood was shed. In Yah'shua's ecclesia on earth as it is in heaven, the only legitimate High Priest that has any authority over doctrine is Yah'shua and His doctrine is Torah.
Proverbs 4 Security in Wisdom
1 Hear, my children, the instruction of a father, And give attention to know understanding;
2 For I give you good doctrine: Do not forsake my law.
3 When I was my father’s son, Tender and the only one in the sight of my mother,
4 He also taught me, and said to me: “ Let your heart retain my words; Keep my commands, and live.
5 Get wisdom! Get understanding! Do not forget, nor turn away from the words of my mouth.
6 Do not forsake her, and she will preserve you; Love her, and she will keep you.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; Therefore get wisdom. And in all your getting, get understanding.
8 Exalt her, and she will promote you; She will bring you honor, when you embrace her.
9 She will place on your head an ornament of grace; A crown of glory she will deliver to you.”
10 Hear, my son, and receive my sayings, And the years of your life will be many.
11 I have taught you in the way of wisdom; I have led you in right paths.
12 When you walk, your steps will not be hindered, And when you run, you will not stumble.
13 Take firm hold of instruction, do not let go; Keep her, for she is your life.
14 Do not enter the path of the wicked, And do not walk in the way of evil.
15 Avoid it, do not travel on it; Turn away from it and pass on.
16 For they do not sleep unless they have done evil; And their sleep is taken away unless they make someone fall.
17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, And drink the wine of violence.
18 But the path of the just is like the shining sun,[a] That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.
19 The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know what makes them stumble.
20 My son, give attention to my words; Incline your ear to my sayings.
21 Do not let them depart from your eyes; Keep them in the midst of your heart;
22 For they are life to those who find them, And health to all their flesh.
23 Keep your heart with all diligence, For out of it spring the issues of life.
24 Put away from you a deceitful mouth, And put perverse lips far from you.
25 Let your eyes look straight ahead, And your eyelids look right before you.
26 Ponder the path of your feet, And let all your ways be established.
27 Do not turn to the right or the left; Remove your foot from evil.
It's a bit hard to avoid the TRUTH when it is as plain as this prophesy of YHVH speaking to HIS only Begotten Son, Yah'shua Messiah.
No one has properly defined cult. The basic structure of a cult is it is based on the leadership of one individual with no appeal beyond that person. All focus is inward to the center of the group. There is no outside influence. Members are absolutely subservient to the leader.
patlin - your arguement on this point is greatly flawed. You are quoting Romans 4:3 - a letter written in Greek, not Hebrew, therefore the GREEK definition of "believe" is what matters, not a Hebrew translation. Variations also found in Gal 3:6 and James 2:26 and in ALL THREE cases, the Greek for "believed" is pisteuō (to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in), NOT 'establish'.
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