Posted on 10/22/2011 7:56:36 AM PDT by Blind Eye Jones
If only you were a Baptist. No problem slipping down the street to another church more to your liking, or finding a few adults with beliefs similar to yours and starting your own congregation.
I agree with everything you wrote. I predict, though, that ”Gay Christians” are not going to be persuaded. Fallen humans --- all of us--- left to our own interpretations, tend to construe Scripture in a way that serves our own tendencies.
Almost all the churches, even some of the most conservative, have already conceded the main point. They have conceded that “acts against nature” can be accepted where the couple prefers to reject one of the main defining aspects of normal, natural intercourse: procreation.
Many of your Scriptural arguments against homosexual sex, were always (historically) applied to contracepted sex as well
Jesus may not have mentioned contraception directly, but He did address marriage directly, and at no time did He commend couples trying to block the natural fertility of intercourse.
Paul says that sexual impurity involves exchanging the truth about God for a lie. Natural intercourse is, by God’s design, naturally open to fertility, and Paul says it is immoral for women to exchange “natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.” Unnatural relations would include Lesbian relations, of course; but not only that. Nothing in Scripture ever approves any act of intercourse that is not a procreative-type act. Anything that deliberately turns away from the natural design of an act of intercourse, makes it unnatural.
Jude verse 7 says the people of Sodom and Gomorrah "gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." Does that mean they were all gay? The text does not say so. It does say that they were all perverse.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, “perverse” literally means “turned away” (from per- "away" + vertere "to turn") ---turned away from what? Sigmund Freud, surveying all the perversions--- lesbianism, paraphilias, homosexuality, fetishes, sadism/masochism, pederasty, etc.---observed that all of them have one thing in common: they are turned away from procreation.
This observation matches the Biblical truth that the first purpose of sex derives from the first commandment of God, given to our First Parents while they were still in Eden: be fruitful and multiply.
Sodom and Gomorrah? They DID lack hospitality.
| Ezekiel 16:48-50 [“As I live,” says the Lord GOD] Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit. |
They clearly turned away (perverted) the sexual act away from its natural and God-given design, which is procreative. And this, too, is a kind of inhospitality: the failure to accept and welcome their own children.
Inhospitality to strangers, and inhospitality to babies, are both intrinically linked to the perverting of natural sex.
Deluded contraceptors ignore the fact that the only time their behavior is directly mentioned in the Bible (Onanism), it is shown in a very bad light.
They ignore the fact that every time lack of fertility is mentioned in the OT, it is mentioned as a curse, a deprivation or a source of shame; they ignore the fact that Jesus repeatedly said accepting a little child in His Name is the same as accepting Him; but they can't change the fact that contraceptive sex, the very act, is a sin against God and a perversion of His Will.
Take another look at the Sin of Onan. It was always understood as the sin of rendering an act of intercourse infertile. John Kippley (google that name), who has researched this intensively, says he cannot find a single instance, from the 1st century AD to the 19th century AD, of any Christian writer who did not considered Onan’s offense to be perverting the act of intercourse by wasting his seed.
It wasn’t just a matter of failing to fulfill the Levirate obligation, because the punishment for that is described in detail in Deuteronomy 25: 5-10: it consists of a public insult: the woman can take off the sandal of the man who refused to impregnate her, and spit in his face. But Onan was not just given public disgrace: God judged him worthy of death.
Why? Because it wasn't just WHAT he intended that was wrong(refusal of his Levirate obligation-- that merited a public shaming) but the WAY he did it: by performing a perverted, contracepted act.
You may think this is far afield from Sodomy, but the point is this: for 1900 years, all Christians---Protestant, Orthodox, Reformed, Cstholic, Evangelical, all of them--- understood God's law as forbidding both Onanism and Sodomy.
Now, since 1930, most of them ignore, have redefined, or have accepted, Onanism.
Give them another 15 years, and most of them will redefine Sodomy as well.
I'm not just predicting that. I'm reporting it. It's already happening. The path from Contraception to Homosexuality isn't just a slippery slope. It's the logical entry ramp to the Sexual Revolution superhighway.
I do urge you to take a look at this: "Gay Christian" website - 1,090,000 results (Link)
It's all about re-interpreting Scripture in away which diverges from almost 2 millennia of Christian thought, in order to serve our own sexual preferences.
Demographics are destiny; the future belongs to those who bother to procreate. Abortion, buggery, contraception and sterilization are the ABCS of cultural suicide. America and Europe in particular have not merely embraced them with enthusiasm, but enshrined them as sacred rights. Abortion and sterilization in particular are virtually sacraments for the radical left. In short, Western Civilization is aborting, buggering, contracepting and sterilizing itself out of existence.
bump for later
Ding, ding, ding - we have a thread winnah!
I'm thinking you may find my comments at Post #162 of some interest.
I'm sorry my computer woes (whacked-out keyboard, apparently) have made it too time-consuming for me to address everybody individually as you all deserve. Such interesting points. Carry on!
Mr. Don-o is a very lucky man.
Seemed to work well for the Catholic Church. Just ask the altar boys.
This "hospitality" argument must be one of the standard sodomite talking points. The sin of Sodom and Gommorah was not a lack of "hospitality". They wanted to gang rape the two men (angels) that visited Lot. (see Genesis 18,19) Read Euripides' "Alcestis" for a violation of the guest/host relationship. This isn't even close.
If a gang of sodomites tries to enter my home and rape my dinner guests, it's not a sin against "hospitality". It falls under God's law in Leviticus 20(:13) and most likely Exodus 20:13 (murder).
One last smite against this "law vs. grace" argument. Jesus said:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ALL be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17,18
All is not fulfilled until the great white thrown of judgment and the new Jerusalem. (Revelation 20,21) God still considers sodomite practice an abomination. Sodomites are haters of God (Romans 1:30). David, the "Sweet Psalmist of Israel", asks: "Do I not hate them, O LORD, that hate thee?" (Psalm 139:21). (David is not reproved, btw). Should we love those who hate the LORD and incur His wrath in the process? (2 Chronicles 19:2) No. (Ecclessiastes 3:8)
Yes, but then you get this kind of interpretation as well:
http://www.curehomophobia.com/young-man.html
The only think I found interesting is the take that the man was a CERTAIN young man.
Thanks for your keen insights on this issue and the book link. I don’t know if I’ll have time to get to the book but your putting out some great points that I’ll have to think about when addressing the author.
just looked in the holy Bible and marriage is between a man and a woman.
What Bible do these homosexuals look at and how can soem churches have a homo as a Rev?
If they were honest perverst, they’d do their own thing in their dungeons, cess pits or where ever else they wanted to ply their trade.
But they want to dominate everything and everyone. They cannot stand that anyone tells them “You’re WRONG!”. Or even says not in their hearing that they are wrong. And every religion in the world condemns same sex acts (among other kinds like outside of marriage, between blood relatives, with animals, rape, with children, etc).
So they want to destroy everyone and everything that disagrees with them. Ultimately, because God is in everyone’s heart - in a sense, the conscience - that they can never destroy. So there’s always a tiny voice inside their hearts saying “What you’re doing is WRONG!” Even a slight whisper now and then torments them and makes them angry.
But they could kill everyone who disagrees with them and subvert every religion and that voice would still be there, whispering - “You’re WRONG”.
Plus they’re just angry aggressive nutcases on top of it.
Thank you Mr. Don-o for the bird’s eye comprehensive overview of where this is all heading. Down the sexual revolution superhighway or, as AC/DC puts it, the Highway to Hell. I guess another Dark Age is on the horizon for the Church — more splintering (like a mini Feudalism in the works), more atheists or “brights” for the new age of Enlightenment darkness, more earthy paganism. Perhaps Christianity as we know it will survive and these ugly patches are just potholes or detours on the road to the new Jerusalem. Maybe we are a backseat driver and God is in the driver’s seat and knows our true destination. But the terrain is ugly and the road is bumpy and, like children, we are always asking, “Are we there yet? And who is that hitchhiker called Jesus, anyway? And what is his story?” A lot can happen — have faith!
Thank you Mrs. Don-o for the bird’s eye comprehensive overview of where this is all heading. Down the sexual revolution superhighway or, as AC/DC puts it, the Highway to Hell. I guess another Dark Age is on the horizon for the Church — more splintering (like a mini Feudalism in the works), more atheists or “brights” for the new age of Enlightenment darkness, more earthy paganism. Perhaps Christianity as we know it will survive and these ugly patches are just potholes or detours on the road to the new Jerusalem. Maybe we are a backseat driver and God is in the driver’s seat and knows our true destination. But the terrain is ugly and the road is bumpy and, like children, we are always asking, “Are we there yet? And who is that hitchhiker called Jesus, anyway? And what is his story?” A lot can happen — have faith!
Excellent presentation of just why these acts against nature are sinful.
quite correct — as you put it “the path from contraception to homosexuality is the logical entry ramp to the Sexual revolution superhighway”
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