Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
I never thought that nor implied it. It's the fault of those who improperly catechized me.
I'm just telling you what happened and that I am blamed for my own being poorly catechized.
Ma'am, that is false. I do think there is some small blame for an adult not doing his own homework, but when I adduced your lousy catechism it was not to blame but only to account for the difference between what you were taught and what the Church actually teaches.
The Church in which Aquinas and Bonaventure are held in high respect does not discourage independent thought. The Church of Eckhart, Catherine, and Ebner does not turn people away from a personal relationship with Christ.
We are privileged in our time to be encouraged to read the Bible and to study. We Lay Dominicans are required to study, and happily shoulder the easy and delightful burden, even though among our older members are those who felt Sister Mary Yardstick's wrath.
If, however, you insist that the cruelty and heresy inflicted on you is what the official teaching of the Church is, I must disagree. It simply is not so, and you were indeed horribly catechized.
if the authority I went to was no better catechized than that priest, checking out the teaching I received to ensure that it contained no error, would not have been worth the effort.
Did you not hear of Aquinas, of Dante, of Chesterton or Belloc? Did no one speak to you of Newman? Did you not read Augustine or in the sermons of Gregory the Great? Who told you not to? Did they make you afraid or tell you you were unworthy to go the the great and clear springs and restrict you to the muddy water of the local priest? Why did you listen? I don't get it.
If there's any blame, it's not for your catechesis, it's for not taking steps to remedy it. If I rested in what my parents and Sunday school teachers told me about Christianity, I'd be a Buddhist now. I started my own researches when I was ten and a half. I can tell you the month. It was October of 1958.
They were pretty childish at first. I remember checking the Book of Common Prayer against my KJV -- under the covers with my flashlight. But I wanted to know. May God rebuke those who drove your curiosity out of you.
I do think there is some small blame for an adult not doing his own homework,
Perhaps so, but what with the way the Catholic church teaches that one is to NEVER, EVER under any circumstances to question the teachings and authority of the clergy, you just didn't do it.
We were scared to death of the priests and nuns. They had power, so we were taught, over the destiny of our souls, and the thought of challenging someone who has the power to not remit your sins and send you to hell was terrifying. Nobody in their right mind would take the risk of angering the priest in that way. It just wasn't done. What the priest said was it. Final. No questions asked.
You submitted or burned.
What child is going to take that risk? Once I was an adult and could read and understand myself, I knew that I was free in Christ so could no longer be intimidated into believing what the Church taught and since I couldn't reconcile the differences between what I read and understood in Scripture, I left.
.... but when I adduced your lousy catechism it was not to blame but only to account for the difference between what you were taught and what the Church actually teaches.In your case, I understand that and I do believe you.
Good morning jenk. Read your comments. Thank-you for making my early morning, with my first cup of coffee about meeting Blessed Pope John Paul II in 1987.
All this fighting among Christians and in-fighting among Catholics is not going to help us as we have to deal with two new threats, radcial secularism and radical Islam.
Christians, Catholics, we NEED to love one another.
@jenk, see you over at the Mark Levin Show thread tomorrow night. :)=^..^=
Nope. Never heard of them as a Catholic.
Did you not read Augustine or in the sermons of Gregory the Great? Who told you not to?
Nobody. You can't search out something you were never told of.
Did they make you afraid or tell you you were unworthy to go the the great and clear springs and restrict you to the muddy water of the local priest?
No, I don't recall EVER hearing of any of those men.
Why did you listen?
See previous post. It's not worth risking eternity in hell by challenging the local priest. We were afraid of them. You just stayed off their radar.
I don't get it.
That's likely because it appears that you had a different Catholic experience than a great many of us.
MD, when I was in high school, I read the book, The Power of Positive Thinking. In it, the author quoted passages and verses out of the Bible, referencing them by book, chapter, and verse.
It was the FIRST time in my life that I had seen that. I had NO clue what he was talking about. The names sounded like Eastern mysticism writing.
The way he referred to them indicated that he presumed that it was common knowledge that people would know where to look for those works. It kind of annoyed me that he’d refer to something without telling someone where to go to find it. I had NO CLUE that those works were books of the Bible.
I honestly cannot recall that we had a Bible in the house. I don’t recall ever seeing one. I bought my first Bible (KJ was the only option in those days) when I was 22 and it was the first time in my life that I had any exposure to Scripture outside the readings in the mass, which were approved of by the Church.
I basically started from ground zero in my learning about Scripture. It was almost all new to me except for a few passages I recognized from the mass.
As I said before, what the priest (in essence the Church) said was it. You didn’t need to know anything else and certainly were not encouraged to know anything else and you did not dare question it or seek to understand because we were told we were incapable of it. They’d do it for us. And of course, ultimately, it wasn’t worth the consequences.
It wasn’t until I realized that the threatened consequences (going to hell) of challenging the church did not apply to me any more, that I could do it and learn myself. It wasn’t until I was free of the fear of condemnation for exploring that I could explore.
I’ve pinged a few others only because I know there are a lot of former Catholics in that list who have had very similar experiences and can verify that it is not all that uncommon.
Your Catholic experience is the one that seems to be so out of the ordinary. I suppose that we all tend to think that what we experience is normal for most people, but I’ve met precious few Catholics who can relate to your kind of experience.
I ask because the thesis of the funny book "Why Catholics can't Sing" argues that under the persecutions Irish Catholics became Jansenist in mood and outlook. I don't know that much about the sociology of the Catholic Church.
Still, IMHO what was done to you and those who shared your experience is a terrible crime. No wonder you turned your back on us! They have a lot to answer for. The ignorant should at least shut up, and you were taught by the prideful ignorant.
A heavily Polish, Irish, and Italian area.
Consequently, very Catholic, and also very superstitious.
I did recognize the superstition as not part of Catholicism and rejected it even then, as a child.
If I had your kind of experience, I doubt I would have left the church. However, at this point after so many years, I really have no desire to go back, but not out of anger or resentment, but just that that’s not where I am now. I don’t need or want the trappings of religion. All I want is Jesus.
FReepmail.
I purchased the entire set of tapes in this series about 3 weeks ago and have watched them all. It is an excellent series, and I recommend them to any who are interested in Catholicism, who just want to understand what we believe, or who are muddled in some aspects of their faith.
I just watched the last tape which included a discussion of Purgatory, and it was excellent as well.
Another thing this series does is give a picture of the wide sweep of the Church throughout both time and geography. I cannot tell you how pleased I am with this set. I actually think it would be a great teaching aid to RCIA classes.
Here is a recent prophesy on purgatory:
Purgatory is not a place you should feel content to enter
Excerpt:
The existence of Purgatory
The existence of Purgatory is misunderstood. Many believe that it is simply a waiting period of purification before souls can enter Heaven for those souls who may not have been in a state of grace at the time of death. There are different levels in Purgatory children and all souls feel a burning pain of darkness which intensifies the further down the level. This means that souls who narrowly missed being cast into Hell suffer the pain of burning the most. Although all souls in Purgatory will eventually enter My Father’s Kingdom it is not a place where My children should feel content to enter. This is why you must fight sin and seek forgiveness as regularly as possible to remain in a state of grace. This is why you must obey the Ten Commandments at all times. This is why you must also pray for those souls who are there because without your prayers they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven until the final Day of Judgement.
It is time now to face the truth children.
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http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/purgatory-is-not-a-place-you-should-feel-content-to-enter/
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Message for America embrace your brothers and sisters of all denominations
Excerpt:
You My precious children are lost. You have been shown so much confusion and presented with twisted truths about the existence of God the Father. You use religion as a façade to wreak venom on those more unfortunate than you. It is time to accept the truth that it will only be through your love of neighbour that as a nation you can return into the arms of your Creator God the Father.
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http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/message-for-america-embrace-your-brothers-and-sisters-of-all-denominations/
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And:
The Warning is a form of global confession
Excerpt:
The prayers of My devoted army are already mitigating global disasters and the departure of My Holy Vicar from the Vatican. Their obedience in reciting My Divine Mercy chaplet is saving souls right now.
My daughter make sure that all My children understand that I speak to all religions and denominations through these messages. I exclude no one. For they are all children of God. There is only one God and that is My Eternal Father, God of the Most High.
Come together with Me children and let us work as one to save My souls all over the world quickly. By prayer alone you can help Me save the world.
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http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/the-warning-is-a-form-of-global-confession-2/
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“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ” (Romans 8:1)
Psalm 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Even Catholic agree that if we accept Christ we are “in Christ”. If we are then in Christ and are told that there “is no condemnation for those who are in Christ” and our sins are removed “as far as the east is from he west”, what are we judged on? 1 Corinthians 3:15 is talking about the fact that since we are no longer condemned we will not stand before Christ in judgment of sin but rather in judgment of our service to Him for our rewards
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
We obtain that righteousness while here on earth, not after we die.
2 Corinthians 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Hebrews 10:17 Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.
We are also told in Hebrews that once we accept Jesus sacrifice there is no more offering for sin. Not on this earth and not in some place called purgatory not even before the judgment throne of God.
Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Cor. 5:19-21. Those who accept the complete work of Christ will stand before God without blemish only because of the work of Christ, not through any effort of their own.
Those who accept the completed work of Christ will stand before God without blemish only because of the work of Christ, not through any effort of their own.
Won’t miss it! Love ya!
Not about payment for sin? Why do I sense we are in for some Catholic double speak again? Either Christ did it all or His work was incomplete and we need to complete it.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The passage through purgatory occurs after the Particular Judgement - that of the individual believer if he had been judged saved for eternal life. If the passage through purgatory is not necessary as the believer was sanctified already, then that can be called a reward, indeed, by analogy with how St. Paul says those who go through purgatory "suffer loss". The purgatory is not however itself a "judgment" and it would not occur to me to "equate" the two.
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