Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
The saying of masses or giving of alms does not imply that the soul is “still” in purgation. Good radiates in time and space.
Yes but if it occurs instantly, as you say, there is no time at all spent in that state. Effectively it does not exist. In an instant your sanctification is completed (glorification) and you go directly from sinner/saint to sinless perfection. There is no intermediate state in between the two, if it occurs instantly.
Which it does.
Bad math. Have you studied the calculus? Infinitesimals "exist"; we can add them and get something.
This is why I quit the ping list for Catholics. We are to walk, hand in hand, to God with other Christians. Putting up with the angry back and forth about who said what and which religion is best, and how the Catholic Religion is superior is all bs to me.
Having said that, I kissed the ring of Pope John Paul II in 1987, I have been a Catholic my whole life, and have had much trouble going to church knowing that the Catholics for the most part vote hard-line Democrat regardless of abortion and their tendency to love to control the individual. I went to my Roman Catholic priest and wanted to talk about my apprehensions and do you know what he told me? He said, that it is not a good idea to bring up abortion since everyone has such different views and the church is about inclusion. He is straight from Poland and told me that when Communism fell, it was a very difficult time because his uncles and parents were afraid that they would have to go out to look for a job. He also said that Solidarity was unions, and we have a duty to stand with unionization. The priests before him weren’t much better.
Now, I believe I am a good Catholic. I believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God, the whole apostles creed. But this bickering and stuff is bs and the Catholics in America are mostly brainwashed with unionism, this uncanny ability to be ultra-liberal under the guise of compassion, and extremely uninformed.
You should stop the bickering if you post the threads with simple words of, “I am with you, brother.”
It certainly grieves the Holy Spirit to suggest Seek YHvH in His WORD. This concept denies the efficacy of the salvific
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
death and resurrection of Yah'shua.
that Yah'shua death was of no value.
What utter nonsense. If Jesus sacrifice was a perfect and complete sacrifice for all our sins it is denying that by implying that we can do anything to “assist” or “participate” in any way. And you don’t “participate” in saving.
When the Pope was in Avignon, some people complained. Catherin of Siena kicked butt.
Also, while “I’m more better than you,” is indeed a pain, it’s good to use the opportunity to say what we really teach and what its implications really are.
If one sees purgation as a gift then all this stuff about denying the efficacy of the sacrifice of Christ is for a moment contradicted. People will keep on reading or consulting bad sources and think thy know the teaching of the Church. But we can still try to speak the truth in love.
Oh. Well. That settles it then. We can all go to bed.
Col 1:24 NOT in the KJV, which shucked and jived on this verse.
We are IN Christ. I think that is more amazing than you seem to think it is. I find greater privileges there than you seem to look for.
And it doesn't strike me as nonsense. Itmakes sense to me.
Shaken down, pressed together, RUNNING OVER!
Wow! Great and informative post!
So you think that because Paul felt he was way behind compared to what Christ suffered that means what?
That verse has nothing to do with salvation my friend.
Christ died for my sins, and you know that all Catholics accept that. What you do not perceive, however, is the damage I did to someone else. I must do that reparation too.
I can’t cop out on my responsibilities. Are you responsible for your sins?
It’s about God’s style.
From the article:
“But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches.”
It has been pointed out, repeatedly, to the Catholic Church for about 500 years that the chosen term readily leads to misunderstanding. Notwithstanding, the term still stands, is defended vociferously, and all naysayers castigated as ... well, you know. The bottom line is that the term purgatory will still be defended stoutly, and pressed upon people even though it, at very best, conveys the sense of the Bible’s teaching in only the most strained, derived, and heavily footnoted way possible. Mistakes cannot be admitted by the magisterium. They must be defended at all costs. For nothing less than infallibility is at stake, an attribute that properly belongs to God alone ... but never mind.
You got suckered by the KJV’s pussy-footing translation of “hysteremata. It means “what is lacking”. Paul uses outrageous language to express a glorious truth.
“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)
After Jesus death and resurrection believers no longer go to the place called Sheol but go immediately to heaven to be with Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The concept of purgatory indicates a debt that needs to be paid. Christ paid that debt. For someone to assume that guilt is to step away from the grace of God.
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
God imputes righteousness without works.
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
We obtain that righteousness while here on earth, not after we die.
Jesus was made sin for us.
Every human group has its own jargon. Some of us are saying “purgation” a little more and “Purgatory” a little less. But we have our jargon and its spin-offs, like Dante’s Commedia, whose section on Purgatory is lovely. The term will endure.
My, my, that was quick.
You wrote: “The term will endure.”
Yup, and so will the confusion on one side and the prideful stubbornness on the other. On the other hand, it is simply indicative of a larger and far more important problem. Can anyone say, “justification”?
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Notice how He has reconciled through His flesh, not ours, that He might present us “holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight”. He did it all.
In verse 24 Paul was talking about “what is lacking” in the amount of suffering he had endured compared to what Christ endured. I didn’t miss anything but it seems you may have missed verse 21 and others like it.
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