Does Joel Osteen Not Know, or Does He Not Care? [On Mormonism]

The Christian Post ^ | Oct. 26 2011 | R. Albert Mohler, Jr.

[Gamecock]

Here we go again. Joel Osteen is in the news once again, this time for saying that Mormonism is just another form of Christianity. Osteen, pastor of “America’s largest church,” as the media repeat over and over, was speaking to The Washington Times in an interview that covered a variety of issues. It was the quintessential Joel on display.

Speaking to the newspaper on Monday, Osteen said, “I see faith in America at an all-time high.” His comments came just as a major research project detailed a significant loss of vitality in America’s Christian congregations. That loss of vitality can be traced, among other things, to a loss of theological and biblical conviction. Joel, of course, is proof positive that you can build a crowd without building a church. He is not inclined to deal in much theological conviction.

In the interview, he distilled his message in these words: “Part of our core message is that seasons change, and when you believe, if you don’t get bitter, and you don’t get discouraged, you may not change overnight, but you can get peace.”

He also told the newspaper: “People need to be reminded that every day is a gift from God, and bloom where you’re planted and be happy where you are, and to make that choice to get up every day and be grateful.”

That message includes some truth, of course - but it doesn’t even come close to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Hell will be filled with people who bloomed where they were planted.

On Mormonism, Joel said:

“I believe that [Mormons] are Christians . . . . I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with. But you know what, I know Mormons. I hear Mitt Romney - and I’ve never met him - but I hear him say, ‘I believe Jesus is the son of God,’ ‘I believe he’s my savior,’ and that’s one of the core issues.”

“I’m sure there are other issues that we don’t agree on. But you know, I can say that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Catholics don’t all agree on everything. So that would be my take on it.”

Osteen just stated his belief that Mormons are Christians. He then expressed the thought that Mormonism “might not be the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with,” but he affirmed Mormon statements that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is Savior.

Evaluating Osteen’s boyhood understanding of Christianity would be a project unto itself, given the shifting theology of his preacher father, the late John Osteen.

The main point of concern in Joel’s latest comment is the lack of any biblical standard of judgment and the total abdication of theological responsibility. He relegates doctrinal disagreements between Christians and Mormons to the status of theological debates between Protestant denominations and then includes Roman Catholicism. There are plenty of issues there, and the issues are not the same when comparing Baptists to Methodists, on the one hand, and Protestants and Roman Catholics, on the other. Comparing any form of Trinitarian orthodoxy with Mormonism is another class of question altogether.

Joel reminded the paper’s staff that he has never attended seminary. This is true, of course, but there are thousands of preachers who never had the opportunity to attend seminary who have a sufficient grasp of and commitment to biblical truth that would prevent such carelessness.

By now, it is clear that Joel Osteen’s carelessness is deliberate and calculated. This is not the first time that he has encountered the question of Mormonism. Back in 2007, he told Chris Wallace of FOX News that Mormons are indeed Christians:

“Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that’s what I believe, so, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are.”

The little details of it? Mormonism does not differ from historic biblical Christianity in only the “little details,” and a faithful Mormon would be the first to point this out. Mormonism begins with a plurality of gods, not with the monotheism of the Bible. Jesus Christ is an exalted man - not the incarnate Word. The list of categorical doctrinal differences continues throughout the entire belief system.

The very essence of Mormonism is the claim that historic Christianity is fundamentally in error, and that true Christianity did not exist on earth from the time of the Apostles until Joseph Smith. Mormonism can hardly be charged with hiding their movement’s teachings - the Book of Mormon and the other fundamental texts of the Latter Day Saints are published in plain sight.

In a remarkable exchange with Chris Wallace, Osteen muddied the waters further:

WALLACE: So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?

OSTEEN: I probably don’t get hung up in them because I haven’t really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know.

Here we face a fundamental dilemma. When Joel Osteen hears a summary of Mormon belief that mentions God assuming “the shape of a man,” does he lack the theological discernment to hear how that differs from biblical Christianity, or does it not concern him? In other words, does Joel not know, or does Joel not care?

In the end, we have to conclude that he does not care enough to know, and that is the greater tragedy for a Christian minister. He doesn’t “get hung up” on doctrinal issues, nor has he “really studied them or thought about them.” His own words indict him.

Evangelical Christians are going to face many questions in this season, and the question of Mormonism is now front and center. It will call upon all of us to do what Joel Osteen proudly has not done - to study and think about these issues. In this political moment, we will have to think carefully and act judiciously without confusing the theological questions. We will need the full wealth of Christian conviction.

We will also need deep doctrinal discernment mixed with urgent spiritual concern. The Latter Day Saints include some of the most wonderful and kind people we will ever meet. They put a great emphasis on character and on the moral values of our common concern. They talk freely and passionately about their own beliefs, including their beliefs concerning Jesus Christ. Furthermore, they put action behind their commitments, sending their young people on mission and fueling a worldwide movement that remains one of the fastest-growing on the planet.

But their beliefs concerning Jesus Christ are not those of historic Christianity, and their understanding of salvation differs radically from the message of the New Testament. It is the responsibility of every Christian - and most certainly every Christian minister - to know this.

Joel Osteen told The Washington Times that he is constantly “looking for new ways to influence the culture.” Our culture admires those with low theological commitment and high emphasis on attitude. In Joel Osteen’s case, it is the secular culture that has influenced the minister, and not the minister that is influencing the culture.

[The Theophilus]

Saul was a Pharisee among Pharisees, until the road to Damascus experience.

Paul, many years after the Damascus Road Conversion said he is a Pharisee in the present tense ('ειμι' 1st person singular present active indicative). Paul, more than you or I should know his own Pharisee status.

[Tennessee Nana]

Here we go again. Joel Osteen is in the news once again, this time for saying that Mormonism is just another form of Christianity.
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Well when you have an unvetted board of advisories running your ministry and you wont bother to preach fromn the Bible so nobody gets their feelings hurt, this is what you get...

I knew his father John Osteen quite well..

John must be tired from all that rolling in his grave over the years...

[Tennessee Nana]

I wonder if you went to that same 10,000+ seat church in Houston years ago when John Osteen used to have everyone hold up their Bible and say..

“This is my Bible....”

Joel doesnt seem to do that...

[Colofornian]

Paul, many years after the Damascus Road Conversion said he is a Pharisee in the present tense ('ειμι' 1st person singular present active indicative). Paul, more than you or I should know his own Pharisee status.

I seem to recall the apostle Paul making a few other statements:

* 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. (1 Cor. 9:22)

* 1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. (Romans 9:1-4)

Paul was willing to also take on a "damnation status" if it would mean more Jews would be saved.

And as 1 Cor. 9:22 shows, he took on the identity of whatever would provide the best inroads at the time. In the book of Acts, he appealed to his Roman citizenship.

All throughout the book of Acts -- like double-figures -- where was the first place Paul usually went upon entering a new community? That's right. The synagogue. Do you think had he eschewed his identity as a "Pharisee" that he would have got the hearing he rec'd in those communities?

Besides, even in the most likely interpretation -- a self-abasement of sorts...similar to 1 Tim. 1:16 where he id'd himself as the "worst of sinners"...that, too, "present tense"...it's sort of like the same mentality as a dry drunk saying...

"Once an alcoholic; always an alcoholic."
Hence:
* "Once the worst of sinners; always the worst of sinners"
* "Once a Pharisee of Pharisees, always a Pharisee of Pharisees."

[Colofornian]

If a Mormon is Saved by Grace through Jesus Christ, they are a Christian. Just because the church has some wacky beliefs doesn’t mean every member walks in locked step with that belief.

Well...just guestimating now...
* 20% of Mormons are temple Mormons. Only the Lord knows their heart, but I'd be surprised if this group would be primarily focusing on "grace."
* At the other end are (who knows 20%?) jack Mormons. Inactive Mormons who have enough trouble id'ing as "Mormon" -- let alone any other religious adherence.
* Another 20% are kids & teens. Their parents, seminary teachers, & Boy Scout leaders have them zeroed in upon merit badges in both scouting and in life.
* What does that leave? Perhaps 40% in the middle?

Well, what about this group? While indeed I have the greatest hope for this group, unfortunately, most of them who give ongoing "testimonies" don't tend to "testify" to knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent -- what Jesus Himself defined as "eternal life." (John 17:3)

(But hey, let me know when you find Mormon "testimonies" that are openly throwing their leaders under the bus re: countering the # of gods their leaders have emphasized)

But aside from the sheer guesswork of numbers -- which I concede is what I just offered...sheer guesswork...the key is actually in the phrase I highlighted in your statement: "Saved [present or past tense] by grace."

For one, Mormons are so engrained to think that works trump grace -- or that grace won't kick in until YOU've done everything [see 2 Nephi 25:23 in Book of Mormon]. The problem with that Biblically -- per Paul -- is that a works orientation nullifies God's grace (see Romans 11:5-6)...If works were possible to "set us apart," then guess what? (Christ died needlessly...see Gal. 2:21).

But even worse -- and this is true for a lot of pew-sitters in Christian churches...not just Mormons...too many people think of "salvation" as only future tense. Hence, Mormons (and way too many "Christians") think of "saved" as only some future threshold to cross.

So even by THEIR own "self-application," saved -- present/past tense -- makes no sense to them. It's not even a claim they are asking to have applied to them.

The key to turning that around for people...
...outside the Christian Church,
...people inside the Christian church,
...and people in the cults would be to take what Jesus says to heart...and just believe Him at face value:

* 36 Whoever believes in the Son HAS eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. (John 3:36)
* 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)
* 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes HAS eternal life. (John 6:47)
* 3 Now this is eternal life: that they KNOW YOU, the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)
* See also 1 John 5:9-13

Unless you have Mormons -- and many members of Christian churches -- embrace these passages and believe in a present-tense relationship with the ONLY God and Jesus Christ...then eternal life tends to remain a future foggy mystery for too many.

They deny the very primary teaching of Jesus about what eternal life is: A relationship with Him that is so HIM oriented that it actually qualifies to be called salvific this side of the veil.

ALL who take this to heart: Pray with me: "Lord, knowing You IS eternal life. I believe You grant salvation to me as a free gift...NOW...I trust You. I trust and rely upon Your righteousness (Phil. 3:9; 1 Cor. 1:30) as inserted on my behalf; your blood shed to cover my sin. I am forgiven now by Your grace and mercy, not by what I have spiritually earned or accumulated. I take You at Your Word (John 11:25; 1 John 5:13). Work through me as a result of this present-tense salvation You are giving me. Help me not to see my works as a cause of my salvation. Thank You, Oh, Ultimate Lord!"

[Cronos]

hmm... here's my opinion on Joel Osteen from what I read posted on the Devotional threads -- he's a very good motivational speakers, he makes one feel good. But I'm not so sure (and since I've not read much of what he says or does, this is just opinion) on his Christ-related preaching.

but I don't think he's in the same category as Benny Hinn

To your point they don't have joy, they're not overcomers in their lives, and are therefore of little use to God -- I don't think that is particularly correct -- joy in terms of plain human emotion is not the be-all and end-all. If one does not have joy but has faith, it is 'preferable' (if one was to compare)
Secondly, "overcomers in their lives"? I strongly disagree with that -- there are people who have been poor, homeless etc. for all of their lives, never "overcoming" poverty and yet are marvellous examples of God's grace because they have a simple faith.

[Cronos]

Yet however, Mormonism believes in many gods. This is not the same as the Judeo-Christian belief in Monotheism.

[Cronos]

Seems traditional belief is that Jesus is fully God, and fully man, being the “Son”, one member of the Trinity (the tri unity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit). Also traditionally Satan is a fallen created being (angel).

Yes, and Mormon philosophy is completely against Christian traditional belief

[Cronos]

I don’t know — in terms of worldly “success” the prosperity guys make a lot of money — even Harold Camping is doing pretty well despite Oct 21 having come and gone.

[Cronos]

I'm sorry, but that is incorrect --> "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

Our closeness with the Orthodox is true.

however, we are also close to traditional Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists in the basics of our belief (as encapsulated in the Nicene Creed) and in terms of the Sacraments

We are less close to our Southern Baptist, Assemblies of God brethren

however Mormons are literally on another planet. This is a non-Christian religion, so clubbing them with either the L,A and M or the SBC, AoG is incorrect.

[Cronos]

The fights between various branches of Christianity cannot be compared to the arguments of Christians against Mormons. It is like taking the civil rights movement for blacks to justify the gay marches.

Debates between Christians and Mormons are the same as debates between Christians and Moslems and nothing like intra-Christian debate.

[MHGinTN]

I fumbled my point by not being more specific. As Saul the Apostle Paul was a legalist among the legalists. After meeting Jesus and then spending that time in the desert, Paul emerged as profoundly different man, totally osld out to the Grace of God in Christ. His letters indicate that he, as Paul, did not reject the law, but instead knew Jesus to have fulfilled the Law on our behalf.

I always thought of 'a Pharisee among Pharisees' as Paul confessing he had been a severe administerer of the law, justifying the most severe actions to shut off the 'followerrs of the Nazarene', even holding the coats of those stoning SAtephen for his devotion to The Lord. As the Apostle Paul, the once strictist legalizer among legalists taught Grace by faith in the Promises of God.

[Elsie]

Does Joel Osteen Not Know, or Does He Not Care?

Well; according to what he is QUOTED as saying...

Joel said: “I believe that [Mormons] are Christians . . . . I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with. But you know what, I know Mormons. I hear Mitt Romney - and I’ve never met him - but I hear him say, ‘I believe Jesus is the son of God,’ ‘I believe he’s my savior,’ and that’s one of the core issues.”

[greyfoxx39]

Oh if that is the criteria for truth, then what is giving up one's life for their belief? Two years or your entire life? So according to your logic those who followed Jim Jones, or any jihadist who self-detonates must have the real truth.

WHOA!

My comment was pointing out the fact that the poster was calling the bringing to light on FR the truth about mormonism from original mormon sources by a few of us, "hysteria".

The work of a handful of FReepers compared to the swarming of 52,000 full time missionaries across the globe does not match the mormons for "hysteria".

what about a man who devotes many years in seminary to get his ThD?

Apples to apples. Bringing OUR message vs. their sending THEIR message. The full time Christian clergy vs. the mormon part-time clergy is a different matter entirely.

[PapaNew]

The sermons often go over the TV time limit so they probably edit that out, but every Sunday right after his joke, he has us all put up our Bibles and “say it like you mean it...” (BTW, Joel actually has a very good and scriptural purpose for doing this - Matt 13:3-23; Mark 4:4:3-20; Luke 8:4-15.)

[Tennessee Nana]

The sermons often go over the TV time limit
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Well maybe he needs to START his broadcast having everyone say “This is my Bible...” like his Dad use to...

[Elsie]

The full time Christian clergy vs. the mormon part-time clergy is a different matter entirely.

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Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

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Timeline...    Subject...

 

0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."

1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."

2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."

3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

[The Theophilus]

* What does that leave? Perhaps 40% in the middle?

I was listening to Todd Friel of Wretched Radio when he was speaking with a woman who identified herself as LDS. Todd is trashing Mormon doctrines left and right while the poor girl had no idea what Todd was talking about and summed up this confusion with "I don't believe those things" which are indeed doctrines of the LDS. The point being, is that like so many who attend some local Big Box, they have absolutely no knowledge of orthodox doctrines nor place any value on them.

Your 40% might be an understatement.

I love your analysis and hope to see more of it, particularly the Paul the Pharisee. I am always edified by seeing deft handling of the Scriptures.