Posted on 10/26/2011 5:04:31 PM PDT by Gamecock
Here we go again. Joel Osteen is in the news once again, this time for saying that Mormonism is just another form of Christianity. Osteen, pastor of “America’s largest church,” as the media repeat over and over, was speaking to The Washington Times in an interview that covered a variety of issues. It was the quintessential Joel on display.
Speaking to the newspaper on Monday, Osteen said, “I see faith in America at an all-time high.” His comments came just as a major research project detailed a significant loss of vitality in America’s Christian congregations. That loss of vitality can be traced, among other things, to a loss of theological and biblical conviction. Joel, of course, is proof positive that you can build a crowd without building a church. He is not inclined to deal in much theological conviction.
In the interview, he distilled his message in these words: “Part of our core message is that seasons change, and when you believe, if you don’t get bitter, and you don’t get discouraged, you may not change overnight, but you can get peace.”
He also told the newspaper: “People need to be reminded that every day is a gift from God, and bloom where you’re planted and be happy where you are, and to make that choice to get up every day and be grateful.”
That message includes some truth, of course - but it doesn’t even come close to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Hell will be filled with people who bloomed where they were planted.
On Mormonism, Joel said:
“I believe that [Mormons] are Christians . . . . I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with. But you know what, I know Mormons. I hear Mitt Romney - and I’ve never met him - but I hear him say, ‘I believe Jesus is the son of God,’ ‘I believe he’s my savior,’ and that’s one of the core issues.”
“I’m sure there are other issues that we don’t agree on. But you know, I can say that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Catholics don’t all agree on everything. So that would be my take on it.”
Osteen just stated his belief that Mormons are Christians. He then expressed the thought that Mormonism “might not be the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with,” but he affirmed Mormon statements that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is Savior.
Evaluating Osteen’s boyhood understanding of Christianity would be a project unto itself, given the shifting theology of his preacher father, the late John Osteen.
The main point of concern in Joel’s latest comment is the lack of any biblical standard of judgment and the total abdication of theological responsibility. He relegates doctrinal disagreements between Christians and Mormons to the status of theological debates between Protestant denominations and then includes Roman Catholicism. There are plenty of issues there, and the issues are not the same when comparing Baptists to Methodists, on the one hand, and Protestants and Roman Catholics, on the other. Comparing any form of Trinitarian orthodoxy with Mormonism is another class of question altogether.
Joel reminded the paper’s staff that he has never attended seminary. This is true, of course, but there are thousands of preachers who never had the opportunity to attend seminary who have a sufficient grasp of and commitment to biblical truth that would prevent such carelessness.
By now, it is clear that Joel Osteen’s carelessness is deliberate and calculated. This is not the first time that he has encountered the question of Mormonism. Back in 2007, he told Chris Wallace of FOX News that Mormons are indeed Christians:
“Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that’s what I believe, so, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are.”
The little details of it? Mormonism does not differ from historic biblical Christianity in only the “little details,” and a faithful Mormon would be the first to point this out. Mormonism begins with a plurality of gods, not with the monotheism of the Bible. Jesus Christ is an exalted man - not the incarnate Word. The list of categorical doctrinal differences continues throughout the entire belief system.
The very essence of Mormonism is the claim that historic Christianity is fundamentally in error, and that true Christianity did not exist on earth from the time of the Apostles until Joseph Smith. Mormonism can hardly be charged with hiding their movement’s teachings - the Book of Mormon and the other fundamental texts of the Latter Day Saints are published in plain sight.
In a remarkable exchange with Chris Wallace, Osteen muddied the waters further:
WALLACE: So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?
OSTEEN: I probably don’t get hung up in them because I haven’t really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know.
Here we face a fundamental dilemma. When Joel Osteen hears a summary of Mormon belief that mentions God assuming “the shape of a man,” does he lack the theological discernment to hear how that differs from biblical Christianity, or does it not concern him? In other words, does Joel not know, or does Joel not care?
In the end, we have to conclude that he does not care enough to know, and that is the greater tragedy for a Christian minister. He doesn’t “get hung up” on doctrinal issues, nor has he “really studied them or thought about them.” His own words indict him.
Evangelical Christians are going to face many questions in this season, and the question of Mormonism is now front and center. It will call upon all of us to do what Joel Osteen proudly has not done - to study and think about these issues. In this political moment, we will have to think carefully and act judiciously without confusing the theological questions. We will need the full wealth of Christian conviction.
We will also need deep doctrinal discernment mixed with urgent spiritual concern. The Latter Day Saints include some of the most wonderful and kind people we will ever meet. They put a great emphasis on character and on the moral values of our common concern. They talk freely and passionately about their own beliefs, including their beliefs concerning Jesus Christ. Furthermore, they put action behind their commitments, sending their young people on mission and fueling a worldwide movement that remains one of the fastest-growing on the planet.
But their beliefs concerning Jesus Christ are not those of historic Christianity, and their understanding of salvation differs radically from the message of the New Testament. It is the responsibility of every Christian - and most certainly every Christian minister - to know this.
Joel Osteen told The Washington Times that he is constantly “looking for new ways to influence the culture.” Our culture admires those with low theological commitment and high emphasis on attitude. In Joel Osteen’s case, it is the secular culture that has influenced the minister, and not the minister that is influencing the culture.
Can I ask you a few questions about LDS re: your “take” on Jesus?
Will a believer (Mormon) become a god?
If so, was God (of the bible) once a man?
How many gods would there be eventually?
What is the relationship between Jesus and Satan?
Seems traditional belief is that Jesus is fully God, and fully man, being the “Son”, one member of the Trinity (the tri unity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit). Also traditionally Satan is a fallen created being (angel).
I have heard it said Jesus has been in Mormon teaching, referred to as the spirit brother of Jesus. This puts him (at some time) in the same plane of existence, which I find not compatible with biblical Christianity.
Can you comment?
-Do you believe that Jesus and God the father are the same?
-Do you believe that Jesus and Satan are spiritual brothers?
-Do you believe that Jesus saves you after you have done all you can do?
-Do you believe Mormon men can become god?
The Bible Says: “Judge not, that ye be not judged, For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again” Mathew 7:1-2
Suggest you keep reading. We are told to guard our doctrine and beware of wolves. Or is that not in the Mormon bible?
So taking the above scripture literally: If God finds me an acceptable Christian, yet you sequester God’s Judgment and declare me as a LDS(mormon) a non-Christian
What makes you so sure God has done that? You deny that the one and only God came to earth and died for your sins. You believe that you can be mostly good and Jesus makes up for your shortcomings. You deny original sin. You believe that in the scheme of things there are many gods.
So Go ahead and join the party!
I had a vision, that all Mormons will be cast into the outer darkness. It is not a party but a concern for those who follow the pagan religion founded by a two-bit huckster.
I want to understand your church’s teaching on Jesus. This book I have says concerning Mormon teaching on Jesus:
“Jesus was once a man who became God. He was only a physical man, not God the Son, while he was on the earth. Jesus was not the result of a spiritual act of the Holy Spirit in Mary’s life. He was the result of Mary and Joseph having sex.”
Is this book accurate or is it incorrect?
“Part of our core message is that seasons change, and when you believe, if you don’t get bitter, and you don’t get discouraged, you may not change overnight, but you can get peace.”
What is this idiot talking about now? This sounds like something the Bamster would read from his telemprompter. Doesn’t Joel know that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8), not when the “seasons change” or whatever else Osteen has conjured up in his nothing statement.
Unless you believe that Jesus never had a beginning and never will have an end you do not believe in the Jesus of scripture.
This guy and other false prosperity preachers are going to fail big time. We have seen it before. His kind give a bib black eye to Christianity. He is nothing but a FAT CAT scammer.
Can you give us a description of how it's explained, or what's provided?
If growth programs exist at Lakewood, they're not obvious, and (based on the ones they do advertise) they likely won't have any depth. Either Lakewood/Osteen thinks that Christians can grow to instant maturity like Sea-Monkeys, or else Lakewood/Osteen believes the congregation will never be old enough for solid food.
Then Mormons are Christians only if "Christ" is a label, rather than a historical figure. Because the "Jesus Christ" we find in Mormonism is not the one revealed in the Bible and formally defined at the councils of Nicaea or Chalcedon.
My problem with Joel Osteen isn’t that he always serves patato chips instead of meat in terms of Biblical education; My problem with the Pastor isn’t that he can’t seem to get beyond the happy happy joy joy ear tickling that so many who don’t want to be convicted of their own shortcomings these days seem to prefer.
Joel Osteen preaches prosperity and that is something that is not biblical and why I agree with the previous poster that you responded to who stated that people in his ‘church’ are left to the wolves.
I pray that he repents and starts preaching the BIBLE rather then prosperity.
"I always like to use the analogy of Jim Caviezel [In Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of The Christ']. Like the Mormon Jesus, he dressed the part, spoke the same words (in the original language, no less), and was referred to as Jesus Christ within a specific context, but it makes all the difference in the world whether one worships and depends upon him for their salvation or the genuine article."
A lot of Evangelicala reject Ephesus and the definition of Mary as Theotokos, so it’s shaky ground to criticize the Mormons for rejecting ecumenical councils of the Catholic Church.
Evangelical Neo-Nestorianism is every bit as problematic.
"We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of his [Christ's] blood; but the truth is that that blood has no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action." [ LDS Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 299, 1859]“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent.” - Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255
If you are unable to see why those two assertions from LDS inc leadership are blasphemous to Christianity, then you are a prime candidate for the slick spiritual death in MormonISM.
Joel Osteen is NOT an authority on anything, except how to make millions off the people who come to his ‘Mega Church’. Joel is a master at manipulation...he manipulates his congregation, his TV followers, and the media. And Joel definately not an authority on ‘religions’. Does he know who Yehshua, Jesus, the Son of God really is? Does he buy the Morman teaching that says Jesus and Satan are brothers?
God help him find the real Jesus.
What are you trying to prove to me?
I really am not phased by what heretical teachers have to say about me or my faith.
Mormonism is a hokey folk religion that really is not a threat to my faith or to the Catholic Church, so until it is I simply am indifferent.
All I’ve been trying to say is this anti-Mormon hysteria is identical to the hysteria that has been levied against the Catholic Church by evangelicals for generations. Not to mention, the same anathemas you keep throwing at the Mormons can be thrown back at you.
What’s the difference between a heretical Mormon and a heretical Evangelical?
I regard teachings like the rapture and pre-millenialism every bit as wacky as Mormonism.
Evangelicalism is a greater threat to Catholicism than Mormonism is.
However, I'm not aware of any Evangelicals who would reject the Nicene Creed or the Definition of Chalcedon—the two ecumenical councils I cited, as opposed to one that I didn't.
Only a portion of the entire service. Much goes on before and after the TV portion.
Joel Osteen, in this article, says some things regarding biblical teaching that are absolute kryptonite to a biblical Christian: "I probably don’t get hung up in them because I haven’t really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know. "
I will let the underlined words stand on their own merit without comment.
It still saddens me that Catholic leadership recognizes only the Orthodox as legitimate churches with legitimate Christians.
As a believer in the type of unity Jesus preached in John 17, I will continue to look forward to that day.
However, to view trinitarian, biblical evangelicalism as a challenge greater than a newly minted religion, mormonism, that has Jesus being merely an exalted man born of a father who was an exalted man and ruling over a planet circling some star someplace in the (our?) galaxy is a bit of a reach for me.
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