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All Saints or All Souls? Differences should be black and white
Southern Fried Catholicism ^ | 11/1/2011 | Brad Noel

Posted on 11/01/2011 8:47:19 AM PDT by DogwoodSouth

...[T]oday's feast of All Saints is wholly different from tomorrow's feast: that of All Souls. Today, we celebrate the men and women who have entered heaven; tomorrow, we will remember the souls of our friends and family members who are being purified to do the same. Today, we pray to the saints in heaven with full confidence that they will intercede for us; tomorrow, we pray for the souls in purgatory with full hope that others will do the same for us after we are gone.

There's a big difference between the emphases (and purpose) of the two days.

Honestly, though, you may be hard pressed to find a difference between the way these two feasts are celebrated in your local parish. Today, the priest will wear white vestments - a liturgical color which denotes heavenly purity and which reminds us of the biblical descriptions of heaven, replete with white-robed saints. Tomorrow, though, you're again likely to see white, but then, the symbol is of baptismal purity. But it's not likely that anyone will bother to belabor or stress the (important) differences between the two uses of white, or even between the theological emphases of the two days.

It wasn't always this way...

(Excerpt) Read more at southernfriedcatholicism.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Orthodox Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: allsaints; allsouls; catholic

1 posted on 11/01/2011 8:47:24 AM PDT by DogwoodSouth
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To: DogwoodSouth

How do we know who is in heaven?


2 posted on 11/01/2011 9:03:31 AM PDT by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to...otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: stuartcr

The only people we can say for sure are in heaven ‘now’ - who are in full enjoyment of the beatific vision without need for purgation - are those the Church has identified as Saints.

Their lives and character are exhaustively investigated, and there have to have been miracles accredited to their intercession.

There are bound to be very many people who have died who are Saints in the fullest sense, who nevertheless we just don’t know enough about to formally declare them as Saints.

For the great majority of those who have died: it is prudent and charitable to assume that they are not yet fully possessed of God, and to pray for their souls.

Hope this is helpful.


3 posted on 11/01/2011 9:27:38 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: agere_contra

I was raised a Catholic and attended Catholic schools through college and now in my 6th decade have come to question purgatory.......also limbo. Sounds rather strange to me now.


4 posted on 11/01/2011 9:30:40 AM PDT by estrogen (2012 can't come soon enough)
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To: estrogen

That is because purgatory is an invention of man and borrowed from pagaon religions. For example, prior to Jesus, the Buddists were offering prayers for the dead. A close study of Jesus’s teaching and that of the Apostles will show that they did not teach the concept of purgatory.

In fact, the concept was not even noted in Christian practice until the 2nd Century AD. It has been argued that in the Council of Carthage in 394 the practice of prayers for the dead was upheld. Thus, it did not became a significant part of Catholic theology until the 3rd Century as celebration of the Eucharist for the dead.

Further, purgatory as part of Catholic dogma only was officially adopted in the 16th Centry as part of the outcome of the Councils of Trent. Though one could reasonably argue that the acceptance into doctrine had long occured prior to the official affirmation of the concept of Purgatory.


5 posted on 11/01/2011 10:00:19 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: estrogen
You are correct to question Limbo. It's not authoritative doctrine: - the concept of Limbo was constructed as a plausible answer to the question of what happened to babies and other innocents who die before baptism. I don't know if that question has an authoritative answer, but Limbo isn't it.

However purgation :- the passage of souls through a form of purification to enter the full presence of God - is well-attested and supported by Scripture. It's best not to think of it as a place, but as a process outside of time and space.

If it's helpful: I would submit that purgation is entering the presence of God while not being fully ready for the presence of God.

Some are fully ready to enjoy: I might say withstand - the presence of God: because they are filled with Christ. We call those people Saints.

Others are completely devoid of Christ, and refuse him at the last. They cannot bear, they cannot withstand the presence of God. These souls stones cannot love but only hate. Their fate is piteous - if they knew what pity was.

And then there are the majority of the dead. They are willing to accept Christ, to be changed into beings wholly fit for God's presence - but they are to some extent unprepared.

Their change from preoccupied, somewhat selfish soul to transfigured Saint is the most tremendous transition of their existence - it is joyful, it is cathartic in the truest sense of that word - and it is painful.

That, I submit, is purgatory. It is a place/process of great joy because one beholds God - but it is mixed with the keenest sorrow and pain.

We who are saved by Christ will rush to Him: but many of us will come before him stained, mutated or twisted by selfishness, greed, wrath and so on.

These things makes us unable to be with God, and they will be removed from us - but the process isn't like taking your coat off or picking a scab. It's probably more like having a malignant cancer burnt out by touching the surface of the Sun. Ouch.

Hope this is helpful.

6 posted on 11/01/2011 10:01:15 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: taxcontrol
The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”

In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

Also: 1 Corinthians 3:15: “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”

Here are other passages that touch upon purgation

Hebrews 12:6,10

For whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges. ... but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness.

Isaiah 6:5-7

Then I (Isaiah) said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."

1 Peter 1:7

The genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The full text of 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

Hope this is helpful

7 posted on 11/01/2011 10:04:24 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: taxcontrol

Wow what a great explanation. You know your theology


8 posted on 11/01/2011 10:33:49 AM PDT by estrogen (2012 can't come soon enough)
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To: agere_contra

There is no purgatory. There is Heaven and hell, that’s it. all purification happens in life. Don’t count on purgatory as a way to live poorly and still be saved.
you’re saved by faith alone, but the works of salvation should follow.
Remember the words of Jesus to the thief on the cross. He didn’t got to any purgatory, but went with Jesus to Paradise.


9 posted on 11/01/2011 10:40:09 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: agere_contra
First off, Maccabees and the other Apocryphal works were not adopted into cannon until the Councils of Trent. In fact, it can be reasonably argued that the acceptance of the concept of purgatory forced the Church to accept the Apocryphal works into the cannon. It should be noted that none of the Aprocrypal works were accepted by the Jews of Jesus’s time as cannon or part of the scriptures as evidence by the Jewish council of Jamnia in 90 AD.

Second, every single text you quoted from the New Testament only discuses the removal of a sinful nature (purgation to follow your term). It does NOT assert in any way, shape or form that an individual, once dead has any opportunity to change their fate through either their own suffering or prayers offered by others.

In fact, Jesus and the Apostles taught that each of us will answer alone before God for our sins.

Romans 14:12 (AKJ)
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

There is no allowance for prayers from others, there is no pastor, deacon, priest or pope mentioned here. No prayers for the dead. Everyone, alone with their sins before God. At that moment, all will be laid bare and when the full weight of our sinful nature is made know, our Savior Jesus will intercede for us.

10 posted on 11/01/2011 10:42:07 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol
For example, prior to Jesus, the Buddists were offering prayers for the dead.

But so were the Jews. Are they "pagans," too?

11 posted on 11/01/2011 10:59:02 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: LevinFan
The good thief wouldn't have undergone the pangs of purgatory because he was a Saint. The reason we know he is a Saint is because of Christ's declaration to him on the cross.

I don't believe his name is recorded. Traditionally he is given the name Dismas. Or rather 'Saint Dismas'.

Dismas is an example of a Saint who to our eyes - like St Madgalene - appeared to come very, very late to the vineyard.

Not too late though. We can't be sure, but it looks like the first Saint in heaven may have been this penitent thief.

Imagine the scene of Golgotha. In all those horrific hours of the crucifixion one voice was raised in prayer and praise of the living God - and it was the voice of Dismas saying 'Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom'.

12 posted on 11/01/2011 11:00:57 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: taxcontrol
First off, Maccabees and the other Apocryphal works were not adopted into cannon until the Councils of Trent.

Completely and absolutely false. They were affirmed as canonical by Florence, 120 years before Trent, and by the local councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Rome around the time the NT canon was fixed (AD 400). They are also accepted as canonical by all of the Eastern churches who broke union with Rome 500 years or more before Trent.

It amazes me that people keep repeating this easily-disproven falsehood as though it were Gospel truth.

And, even if your error were true, it doesn't change the fact that Maccabees is Jewish literature, and the Jews endorsed prayer for the dead, as they do to this day.

It does NOT assert in any way, shape or form that an individual, once dead has any opportunity to change their fate

Neither does purgatory, so what's your point? Everyone who goes to purgatory goes to heaven.

13 posted on 11/01/2011 11:03:07 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Campion

Sorry, not falling for the attempt at baiting. My statement stands as presented. Pagans were known to offer prayers for the dead. If you wish to attempt to refute that simple statement of fact please do so.


14 posted on 11/01/2011 11:10:01 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol
Good. Excellent. You agree that purgation is real. It is a real thing. It is the removal of a sinful nature. This is exactly right.

Purgation isn't to be regarded as a substitute for Judgement. It is what happens to many of the souls who are Judged, as part and parcel of their Judgement. As St Paul intimates, some of those who are Judged will be saved: yet their work will be burned up.

If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

15 posted on 11/01/2011 11:20:03 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: taxcontrol
No attempt at baiting was intended.

Jews prayed for the dead before Christ, at the time of Christ, and today. That's as much a "simple statement of fact" as yours was. If prayer for the dead makes one a pagan, then Jews are pagans.

16 posted on 11/01/2011 11:24:13 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: taxcontrol
Pagans were known to offer prayers for the dead. If you wish to attempt to refute that simple statement of fact please do so.

Why would anyone want to refute that?

Many pagans believed in life after death. Where such beliefs existed those pagan theories were combined with a theory of judgement after death by a God who judges souls.

Should we stop believing in the concept of an afterlife, and of judgement between the Good and the Bad, just because the Egyptians also believed something of the sort? No, of course not.

Some pagans also adopted a belief in monotheism. Should we junk monotheism because e.g. the Aten cult got a form of monotheism first? No, of course not.

Pagans prayed for the dead. That's not wrong just because pagans did it. Instead it sounds like they were acting on a God-given instinct.

17 posted on 11/01/2011 11:31:06 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: estrogen

You are very kind, thank you estrogen.


18 posted on 11/01/2011 11:33:52 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: agere_contra

All who believe by faith are saints. People are called saints left and right in the NT. The thief was saved only by his faith. There is no place mentioned in the Bible discussing anything between Heaven and Hell.purgatory is man made to help sinners feel better about sinning, rather than taking their sins to Jesus.


19 posted on 11/01/2011 11:39:56 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: agere_contra

All who believe by faith are saints. People are called saints left and right in the NT. The thief was saved only by his faith. There is no place mentioned in the Bible discussing anything between Heaven and Hell.purgatory is man made to help sinners feel better about sinning, rather than taking their sins to Jesus.


20 posted on 11/01/2011 11:40:08 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: LevinFan
There is no place mentioned in the Bible discussing anything between Heaven and Hell.

It is mentioned LevinFan, though it may be better to think of it as a process rather than a place. Purgation is transitory and not eternal: there is no permanent, eternal place called "purgatory":- although one might justly use the term for the place where purgation takes place.

I don't want to labor the point, but if you have a look at my post #7, I list examples of where purgatory/purgation is described in the Bible.

Hope this is helpful

21 posted on 11/01/2011 11:49:33 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: DogwoodSouth

Ok thread-buddies, I’m off to mass.

Tomorrow is the feast of All Souls: no doubt we’ll get a chance to revisit these topics :0)


22 posted on 11/01/2011 11:54:48 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: agere_contra

I did look at your post. But all of those examples happens on earth while alive.


23 posted on 11/01/2011 11:57:39 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: LevinFan
purgatory is man made to help sinners feel better about sinning

The Mass for All Souls is the Requiem Mass. Ever read through the texts for the Requiem Mass? They don't make you "feel better about sinning". They make you remember your own death, and how you must someday face a righteous God.

Read through this, which is the Sequence for tomorrow in the old rite, any time you're "feeling better about sinning". I guarantee the feeling will go away.

24 posted on 11/01/2011 12:00:29 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: agere_contra
" ... but only as one escaping through the flames.”"

That's the key point to me, those who love Christ won't be able to resist going toward the Father but continuing to him will be the same as passing through flames to escape a burning building. Without knowing Christ, we would be so ashamed of themselves when we see themselves as we really are for the fist time that we'd want to hide the way Adam and Eve wanted to. Once you've accepted Christ, though, you'll be drawn to the Father in spite of the pain heading that way causes.

It also fits with those folks who are revived from near death experiences and say they were drawn toward the light and such, some of whom say they couldn't stand how bright and penetrating the light is and were trying to turn away from it or shield their eyes from it and so on. The Scripture says, "... men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil", perfectly describes that reaction. If someone has that reaction when Christ enters time in his life, they'll have the same one when they're outside of time in the next life. Only those who trust in Christ will be able to resist turning away because they're trusting in the promise of Christ.

Given that this takes place in "no time" rather than in time as we understand it, it's hard to say how we'll experience time and the duration of things. Like people escaping a burning building, though, a short time passing could well seem like a a much longer time to the one escaping through flames.

JMHO

25 posted on 11/01/2011 12:07:32 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: agere_contra

Why do you claim St. Mary of Magdala came to Jesus late? You’re not making that spurious claim that she was a prostitute are you? She was not.


26 posted on 11/01/2011 12:23:39 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Nuts; A house divided against itself cannot stand.)
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To: agere_contra
>>are those the Church has identified as Saints.<<

Scripture shows all believers to be saints.

27 posted on 11/01/2011 1:11:49 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: estrogen
>>Sounds rather strange to me now.<<

It’s not just strange, it’s out and out blasphemy. It denies the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice.

28 posted on 11/01/2011 1:14:44 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: agere_contra; taxcontrol
>>If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.<<

That entire chapter is talking to and about the leadership of the church. And it referenced the people they were teaching who did or didn’t maintain the faith. Some fell away because of poor “milk” only teaching and some stayed true to the faith because of “meat” teaching so the leadership would get more rewards if they taught strong “meat” taught Christians. It has nothing to do with purgatory.

29 posted on 11/01/2011 1:22:54 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: DogwoodSouth

White vestments for All Saints Day!


30 posted on 11/01/2011 2:43:26 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: estrogen

Just know that you are a Catholic and will always be a Catholic.

Why don’t you sit down with a priest you can talk with and get your questions answered?


31 posted on 11/01/2011 2:44:52 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: LevinFan

**All who believe by faith are saints.**

But if you are alive, arne’t you a sinner?


32 posted on 11/01/2011 2:47:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All

All Saints and All Souls? Differences should be black and white

Durer: Altarpiece of Saints

Yesterday, we discussed the origins of today's solemnity: All Saints. And today, in Masses all over the world, the Church joins together in commemorating and celebrating all of the saints who are enjoying the beatific vision in heaven. Tens of thousands of men and women from all ages, all walks of life and all cultures have been "canonized" (that is, officially added to the Church's list of saints) and we have full confidence that they intercede for us before God's heavenly throne.

The truth is, we don't really know how many saints there are. Estimates are that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have canonized well over 10,000 men and women over the past centuries. But we also know that, for whatever reason, only some of the heavenly company have been made known to us through this official process. This is one reason for today's presence on the Church calendar: to celebrate all of the saints in heaven - even those whose names are not recorded in history.

Who are the saints?

The concept of "sainthood" really isn't that difficult to understand. Through the merits of Christ's redemptive sacrifice on the Cross, we believe that some men and women will be admitted to the eternal life of heaven, where they will spend eternity praising God. All Christians believe that much.

Icon of Orthodox saints
For Catholic (and Orthodox) Christians, however, there is another facet: we believe that death does not sever a Christian from the Body of Christ. In other words, even in death, the Church is united as one body: the Church militant (those of us still here, "fighting the good fight" here on earth), the Church suffering (those in purgatory undergoing final purifications to enter heaven), and the Church triumphant (those in heaven - whom we call "saints").

Since we are all part of the indissoluble and eternal Church, we are called to help one another and pray for one another. This means that we here on earth should pray for those suffering in purgatory and we all ask for the prayers of the heavenly saints. Truth is, life is tough, the devil is real and we need all the help we can get!

In addition to their prayers, the saints also left behind another important legacy: their lives and Christian witness. Some exuded holiness from an early age, but many were quite despicable people before definitively giving their lives over to God. All of these (but especially the latter group) give us hope and set before us an example to be emulated. Truly, we are all called to be saints, and - if we just look - we have many blueprints to follow.


Black or White?

All of that being said, today's feast of All Saints is wholly different from tomorrow's feast: that of All Souls. Today, we celebrate the men and women who have entered heaven; tomorrow, we will remember the souls of our friends and family members who are being purified to do the same. Today, we pray to the saints in heaven with full confidence that they will intercede for us; tomorrow, we pray for the souls in purgatory with full hope that others will do the same for us after we are gone.

There's a big difference between the emphases (and purpose) of the two days.

Medieval depiction of Funeral Mass
Honestly, though, you may be hard pressed to find a difference between the way these two feasts are celebrated in your local parish. Today, the priest will wear white vestments - a liturgical color which denotes heavenly purity and which reminds us of the biblical descriptions of heaven, replete with white-robed saints. Tomorrow, though, you're again likely to see white, but then, the symbol is of baptismal purity. But it's not likely that anyone will bother to belabor or stress the (important) differences between the two uses of white, or even between the theological emphases of the two days.

It wasn't always this way. For centuries, the traditional liturgical color for All Saints' Day has been white. The traditional color for All Souls' Day, though, was black. And despite what you may have been told in the past, black is still an acceptable liturgical color - its just that black vestments fell out of favor over the past 30-40 years and many parishes simply packed or threw them away.

But using white for All Saints and black for All Souls just makes more sense, really: white denotes heavenly purity while black is the traditional Western color for mourning. On All Saints, we celebrate the saints we know to be in heaven. But on All Souls, we mourn and pray for, the souls we hope will be received into heaven. To wear liturgical white on both days is confusing at best, or - at worst - deceptive.

The same hold true for funerals. We've shifted, as a culture, away from our traditional grounding in the reality of sin, the reality of death and the reality of suffering. We try to sterilize and ignore all of them by making funerals less "gloomy" and more light-hearted. Even Catholic funerals have taken a spiritually unhealthy turn from praying for the soul of the dead to "celebrating life" and virtually ignoring anything remotely uncomfortable like the fact that the dead need our prayers. In most modern funeral Masses, the priest chooses to wear white vestments instead of black - an extension of this "think on good" mentality.

It's certainly a good thing to remember the joys of heaven that await the souls that God deems just. Hope is an important Christian virtue! But we can't deny that mourning is proper and healthy ("Jesus wept," remember?) and should be given its symboling place in our funerals in in our annual remembrance of the departed souls: All Souls' Day. To skip over the "black" of mourning and go straight to the "white" of sainthood displaces the virtue of hope. But, more importantly, it does not encourage prayer for the dead, accomplishes a real injustice to the souls of the faithful departed who rely on our prayers.

Priests celebrating Mass in black vestments

Back in Black

But all is not lost. Despite the best (though, perhaps misguided) efforts of some, the baby was not thrown out with the bathwater (though he's barely hooding on the edge of the tub by a fingernail). Slowly but surely, black is making a comeback as a liturgical color. Especially on All Souls' Day, more and more priests are donning black vestments to return an aire of somberness and sobriety to Masses for the dead. In large part, it is the newer generations of priests who are doing this - the same priests who are answering Pope Benedict's call to recover a sense of the sacred in the Church's liturgy, and who are embracing the liturgical changes of Vatican II as being organically connected to all that came before (black vestments and all).

Lex orandi, lex credendi - a Latin axiom which teaches that "how we pray affects what we believe." If we want to be reminded tomorrow that the souls of the dead need our prayers, we should ask our priests to wear black. Come on priests - be rebels! Wear the black!

33 posted on 11/01/2011 2:57:48 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: estrogen
well, imho it's good to question. The two things we need to remember is
1. what is the core dogma of salvation -- that is the Gospel. purgatory is doctrine yes but not the core dogma of salvation which is freely given grace from God

2. purgatory or the final sanctification, is not a time, not a place, not a period of time but the final stage in our sanctification by the grace of God, by the power of the Holy SPirit through the blood of Christ

34 posted on 11/01/2011 3:00:29 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: taxcontrol; estrogen
the Buddists were offering prayers for the dead

errr... could you explain? As far as I know, Buddhists believe in reincarnation or escaping the cycle of reincarnation -- the dead are just reborn and its all determined by their Karma. They do not pray for the dead as that would make no sense in this philosophy -- you are responsible for your own salvation in Buddhist philosophy and after death are either reborn or attain Nirvana.

In fact, the concept was not even noted in Christian practice until the 2nd Century AD. -- imho that is incorrect. Christian catacombs have inscriptions dating from AD 71. This was a continuation of the Jewish practice of praying for the dead

only was officially adopted in the 16th Centry -- I'm sorry but again that is wrong. You can find it in the documents of the Council of Florence two centuries earlier

35 posted on 11/01/2011 3:07:18 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: CynicalBear

False — and you’ve been told so over and over again. The Final sanctification/purgatory is not a punishment and you do not “earn your way out” — rather it is the final stage of sanctification BY God. Only those going to heaven experience this and this is something that God does to the person. Our prayers are to God to aid the person in their final sanctification


36 posted on 11/01/2011 3:14:18 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Cronos
>>False — and you’ve been told so over and over again.<<

Now that there is funny! I know that Catholics have been conditioned to believe whatever they are told about what scripture means but me,,,,,not so much.

>> rather it is the final stage of sanctification BY God.<<

I believe that Christ said while still on the cross “it is finished” and I take Him at His word and will add no more requirements than He did.

>> Our prayers are to God to aid the person in their final sanctification<<

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

37 posted on 11/01/2011 3:38:14 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

In the Bible, at the moment of Christ’s death — bodies arose from their graves and believers could see them.

Now where do you suppose their spirits were since Christ was the first one into heaven and heaven wasn’t open yet?

They (those spirits) were in a waiting place — and we Catholics call that Purgatory — although it wasn’t named as such.

It’s right there in the Bible.

A question for you — and don’t be cynical in your answer, please.

Do all spirits have to be pure to enter heaven?

Then what happens to our spirits when our bodies are left here on earth (providing we are heaven-bound)? Some of us die with small sins on our souls — and even though Christ died for our sins — we do our part to add to his death on the Cross by doing reparation for those sins.

It’s like breaking the neighbor’s window when you threw a wayward baseball. You admitted to the neighbor’s that you did it — and if you had a good parent — you worked for the neighbors or others to earn money to pay for them to get a new window.


38 posted on 11/01/2011 4:19:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
>>Now where do you suppose their spirits were since Christ was the first one into heaven and heaven wasn’t open yet?<<

They were in a place called Paradise. When Old Testament believers died they went to a place called paradise because the veil between the people and God had not been torn. When Christ died that veil was torn asunder which meant that those saved could go into the presence of God. He went down into paradise and released those Old Testament believers to allow them into the presence of God in heaven. That veil remains torn today and those who have been “redeemed” by Christ go directly into the presence of God. The place called paradise no longer exists.

For Catholics to claim that those who are saved must still go into that place deny that the veil was torn for all time. >>Do all spirits have to be pure to enter heaven?

Yes they do and all those who have accepted the full and complete price Jesus paid are.

>>Some of us die with small sins on our souls<<

Not if we have accepted the penalty Christ paid for ALL our sins.

>>we do our part to add to his death on the Cross by doing reparation for those sins.<<

No we don’t “do our part”. To claim so is to deny that Christ’s sacrifice was complete and sufficient for all our sins.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are >b>sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

>>It’s like breaking the neighbor’s window when you threw a wayward baseball. You admitted to the neighbor’s that you did it — and if you had a good parent — you worked for the neighbors or others to earn money to pay for them to get a new window.<<

I do believe that scripture calls that the wisdom of men.

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

39 posted on 11/01/2011 5:03:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Will you be surprised at the moment of your death to find out that the so-called “Paradise” is also “Purgatory?”


40 posted on 11/01/2011 5:07:40 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
>>Will you be surprised at the moment of your death to find out that the so-called “Paradise” is also “Purgatory?”<<

Nope, no purgatory after the rending of the veil.

41 posted on 11/01/2011 5:57:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Cronos

I believe it is feedback noise we keep hearing from some posters. Happens when your only input is your own output.


42 posted on 11/01/2011 7:35:43 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: CynicalBear
Yes, but take on board Colossians 1:24

"Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."

Something is indeed lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions. It is our share in them.

43 posted on 11/02/2011 4:59:26 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: Rashputin

A remarkable post, thank you.


44 posted on 11/02/2011 5:03:10 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: agere_contra

Paul was simply saying that the suffering he went through didn’t even come close to the suffering Christ went through. To claim that as the insufficiency of Christ’s suffering and sacrifice or that we must add to Christ sacrifice is nonsense at best.


45 posted on 11/02/2011 7:25:21 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: taxcontrol

As I pointed out — the Buddhists do not offer prayers for the dead as they are reincarnated or have achieved nirvana. I pointed out the other errors in your post


46 posted on 11/03/2011 4:37:35 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Cronos
Buddists pray for the dead .. or to say it a different way, Buddists say prayers for those that are no longer living (dead). The Buddists believe incorrectly in reincarnation however, what they believe is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Purgatory was only officially adopted in the 16th Centry. Please pay attention to the term "officially adopted". The Council of Florence only raised the concept of Purgatory. It did not make it official dogma. The term used in the Catholic encyclopedia is "began apropos" meaning interjection for further comment - to be discussed at the appropriate time. In essence, this was the formation of the doctrine as there was a need by the Catholics to justify their doctrine that had been rejected by the Greek Orthodox as apart of the larger context of the attempt at reunification of the Latin and Greek. The official adoption was done at the Council of Trent. One could argue that the Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520 Exsurge Domi, that since the Bull mentions purgatory, that it is "officially adopted" at that time. However, that is also 16th Centry.

As for when it became Christian practice (as in an expectation or duty) the earliest writings that I know of are from Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD) which is second centry. The Apostles and Clement of Rome lived till 100 AD yet none of them in any of their writtings call for prayers for the dead. The fact that some Christians continued the Jewish practice shows how the coruption of thought continued into Christianity and that corruption was eventually adopted as doctrine by the Catholics.

47 posted on 11/03/2011 9:15:30 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol
Buddists pray for the dead .. or to say it a different way, Buddists say prayers for those that are no longer living (dead). The Buddists believe incorrectly in reincarnation however, what they believe is irrelevant to the point I was making.

It is relevant as you said they pray for the dead. They do not technically have anyone in the "dead state" as in Buddhism, as in Hinduism, once you are dead you get reincarnated or attain nirvana. No "place" after death.

I pointed this out with the other errors in your statement.

48 posted on 11/03/2011 11:37:49 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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