Posted on 11/18/2011 6:13:09 AM PST by Alex Murphy
Next Thursday, as the rest of us tuck into our turkey feasts, hundreds of needy families in Southern California will open "Boxes of Love." Delivered by several churches led by Pacific Crossroads in Santa Monica, Calif., the boxes contain ingredients for a Thanksgiving meal for six. They allow impoverished families to skip food lines and neighborhood pantries and enjoy the holiday in their own homes.
What's unusual about the Pacific Crossroads congregation—and what underpins efforts such as Boxes of Love—is its theologically conservative raison d'être. A member church of the Presbyterian Church in America, Pacific Crossroads is committed to Reformation doctrines such as total depravity (every person is born sinful) and limited atonement (salvation is available only to the elect). These beliefs are typically regarded as ugly and inhumane by American culturati. Yet the church's pastor, Rankin Wilbourne, is happy to pepper his sermons with references to Bono and "Jersey Shore," and the church has grown to around 1,500 members from 500 in three years.
[SNIP]
And so in a city more often associated with Calvin Klein, John Calvin's teachings provide a basis for hope. In his commentary on II Corinthians 8, the 16th-century Swiss theologian connected Christians' assurance of salvation with their freedom to give to the poor:
"What makes us more close-handed than we ought to be is when we look too carefully, and too far forward, in contemplating the dangers that may occur—when we are excessively cautious and careful—when we calculate too narrowly what we will require during our whole life, or, in fine, how much we lose when the smallest portion is taken away. The man that depends upon the blessing of the Lord has his mind set free from these trammels and has, at the same time, his hands opened for beneficence."
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
What does St. Cyprian’s interpretation of the scriptures and his teaching have to do with anything you said?
The Church is a sacred mystery of divine origin that is visible just as Christ was visible and outside of which there is no salvation.
It is a sin to presume your salvation.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:12.
Do you believe you will be saved if you live a corrupt life, but profess that Jesus is Lord with your lips?
So do you think salvation is a subjective feeling you get?
As a Catholic, I believe that I work out my salvation with fear and trembling with the help of God’s sanctifying grace.
If you don’t belong to Christ’s body then how can you be saved apart from it?
Where in scripture does it say that the Church is invisible?
I guess the following is unscriptural.
V. The Church is Visible and One
Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.
Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.
Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because “binding and loosing” are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.
John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.
John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus’ oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.
John 17:9-26 - Jesus’ prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.
John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.
Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.
Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.
1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean “invisible” unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.
Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.
Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.
Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.
Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.
Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.
Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different “Protest”ant denominations?
Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.
1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.
2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ’s Church.
2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ’s teachings which He gives us through His Church.
Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is “catholic,” which means universal.
1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.
Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.
Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.
1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ’s Church.
VI. The Church is Hierarchical
Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.
Acts 20:17,28 - Paul refers to both the elders or priests (”presbyteroi”) and the bishops (”episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.
1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.
Eph. 4:11 - the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.
Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.
1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ’s Church has bishops (”episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.
1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (”presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.
1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ’s Church also has deacons (”diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.
Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood (1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1); (2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and (3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6). The New Testament priesthood also has three offices: (1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1); (2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and (3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).
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VII. Controversies in the Church
Matt. 13:24-30 - scandals have always existed in the Church, just as they have existed outside of the Church. This should not cause us to lose hope in the Church. God’s mysterious plan requires the wheat and the weeds to be side by side in the Church until the end of time.
Matt. 13:47-50 - God’s plan is that the Church (the kingdom of heaven) is a net which catches fish of every kind, good and bad. God revealed this to us so that we will not get discouraged by the sinfulness of the Church’s members.
Matt. 16:18 - no matter how sinful its members conduct themselves, Jesus promised that the gates of death will never prevail against the Church.
Matt. 23:2-3 - the Jewish people would have always understood the difference between a person’s sinfulness and his teaching authority. We see that the sinfulness of the Pharisees does not minimize their teaching authority. They occupy the “cathedra” of Moses.
Matt. 26:70-72; Mark 14:68-70; Luke 22:57; John 18:25-27 - Peter denied Christ three times, yet he was chosen to be the leader of the Church, and taught and wrote infallibly.
Mark 14:45 - Judas was unfaithful by betraying Jesus. But his apostolic office was preserved and this did not weaken the Church.
Mark 14:50 - all of Jesus’ apostles were unfaithful by abandoning Him in the garden of Gethsemane, yet they are the foundation of the Church.
John 20:24-25 - Thomas the apostle was unfaithful by refusing to believe in Jesus’ resurrection, yet he taught infallibly in India.
Rom. 3:3-4 - unfaithful members do not nullify the faithfulness of God and the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Eph. 5:25-27 - just as Jesus Christ has both a human and a divine nature, the Church, His Bride, is also both human and divine. It is the holy and spotless bride of Christ, with sinful human members.
1 Tim. 5:19 - Paul acknowledges Church elders might be unfaithful. The Church, not rebellion and schism, deals with these matters.
2 Tim. 2:13 - if we remain faithless, God remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself.
2 Tim. 2:20 - a great house has not only gold and silver, but also wood and earthenware, some for noble use, some for ignoble use.
Jer. 24:1-10 - God’s plan includes both good and bad figs. The good figs will be rewarded, and the bad figs will be discarded.
1 Kings 6,7,8 - the Lord commands us to build elaborate places of worship. Some non-Catholics think that this is controversial and the money should be given to the poor, even though no organization does more for the poor of the world that the Catholic Church. We create our churches with beauty because Christ our King lives in the churches in the blessed Eucharist.
Matt. 26:8-9; Mark 14:4-5; John 12:5 - negative comments concerning the beauty of the Church are like the disciples complaining about the woman anointing Jesus’ head with costly oil. Jesus desires that we honor Him with our best gifts, not for Him, but for us, so that we realize He is God and we are His creatures.
Matt. 26:10-11 - Jesus says we have both a duty to honor God and give to the poor - a balanced life of reverence and charity.
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The only thing that saves us is GRACE. Not WORKS. Not the Church. The grace of God, who sent his Son, to die in propitiation of our sins.
What say if your works impede the work of grace within you? Do you believe that grace is irresistible?
As I said before, I am not a Calvinist.
Therefore, I do not believe in what Calvinist cannot prove from scripture.
Yes, they have a few scriptures they cite, but the whole counsel of the bible does not support their 5 points. If it did, then there would be no need for the codifying of the 5 points, it would be clear from scripture.
As to if grace can be resisted? Yes it can. Does this imply that God is not all powerful? No. Because God has allowed man free will. God struggles with us for a long time. However, if you reject the light he will give you over to your own sinful desires ( Again read Romans 1, it describes the process perfectly).
Also, note that the ONLY unpardonable sin is “rejecting/blaspheming the Holy Spirit”.
“The unforgivable sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit has been interpreted in various ways, but the true meaning cannot contradict other Scripture. It is unequivocally clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John 3:18; 3:36). Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible. ‘My spirit shall not always strive with man,’ God said long ago (Genesis 6:3).
Calvin’s basic error was to try to “reconcile” scripture verses by assuming that God is like a Man in some ways, for example is limited by time. This is not the case. God knows the beginning from the end because he exists in all time simultaneously, and in fact, is above time. He created it. He can “see” tomorrow and yesterday just as easily as we can see our left hand and our right hand.
They say the Bible does, so who’s interpretation is right?
What makes your interpretation based on the Bible alone more correct than theirs?
That’s the basic problem I have had with Sola Scriptura since I began questioning it.
What say objectively makes a traditionalist who interprets scripture to say that homosexuality is sinful correct and a liberal who picks other scripture verses to support their view that it’s not?
Isn’t Biblical interpretation using the Bible alone as your guide a subjective exercise?
There is no ability to interpret scripture unless you are guided by the Spirit of God.
This is why a child can correctly discern scripture.
It’s not immediate. Prayer, fasting, and studying the word is required. It might take a long, long time. In fact, God may not enlighten you on a particular topic for awhile. In fact, Catholics believe this, too (Vatican II).
For example, I struggled with comprehending the Trinity (being able to defend it against those who do not believe in the three in one nature of God).
God is not a spirit of confusion or error. Therefore, if you are in God’s will, and with prayer, supplication and fasting you search the scriptures, God WILL be faithful and give you light (understanding).
By the way, the issue you quote (homosexuality as a sin), does NOT need interpretation. It’s very clear in God’s word. The issue is that some want God’s word to say something they would rather agree with. This is not interpreting scripture, it’s twisting it.
How can we be sure that a particular interpretation one believer or another has come up with is right? We use the bible itself — but with two or three witnesses.... There are numerous examples in scripture when God says to use two or three witnesses.
Requiring such proof from scripture makes it very, very hard for those who wish to twist scripture, or get it to say something other than the intention.
One cannot stop incorrect interpretations — but one must check everything against the bible, and in two or three bible witnesses, and with prayer, fasting and study the truth will be found.
Our job is not to correct others, it’s to receive the light we are given, embrace it and ask for more. If everybody did this there would be no controversies.
Sola Scriptura simply means that the final authority is God’s word. Not that we don’t take the counsel of wise men, church leaders, etc. But that every thing be proved via scripture. The Jews did not change one jot or one title, no matter what Rabbi was in charge. This, to me, was the chief reason God chose them. They are a stiff-necked and stubborn people, and they were stiff-necked and stubborn about not changing the Word of God.
We (the Church, i.e. those who are faithful and true to FOLLOW) need to be likewise. We should occupy and hold until Jesus comes again.
Scripture is God-Breathed. You may have heard that until the 15th century man thought the earth was flat - have you ever read this? Isaiah 40:22? Job 26:10, lastly Job 26:7 which states the earth floats in space. This completely contradicts what was thought of by secular scholars at the time. There are numerous proofs that the bible was authored by God.
That is the cartoon version of the antiCatholic claim about what Catholics actually believe. If you wish to find out, there are two sources - Scripture and the Catechism.
Okay, I hope you had a terrific, and grateful, Thanksgiving weekend. Now, down to business with a response to your excellent posts: Given - We both want the Scriptures to be rightly represented, we both want the character of God to be rightly represented, we both have little concern defending men of theological notoriety (you, Arminius; me, Calvin). These are all good ambitions. Hopefully, we can preserve them in this discussion.
Your post covered a lot of territory; to respond I’ll have to take it in smaller pieces.
First, it seems that the central question here is does the Bible teach ‘free will’ or does it teach a divine determinism?”
To get us off on the right foot (if I have the question framed correctly), let us make certain we understand terms the same way. By “free will” I mean, “the unaided, uneffected decision making capacity available to all men.” (notice not “unaffected”, but uneffected). There are no “trick” components to this definition. If it is not correct, let me know (or provide corrections before we get too far down the street).
But, if the definition is correct then an example of “free will” in use would mean if a man decides to go downtown, he arrived at a choice to do so through nothing other than his own mental cogitations. He alone made the determination to attempt this act/thought.
If we are still in harmony, here, let me add that I don’t contend “free will” implies the man must succeed at any particular endeavor to have had “free will”. Any one of a million factors may prevent him from accomplishing his choice. Just deciding to try, completely free from anything other than himself, is sufficient to demonstrate “free will”. The only “internal” factors which move a man to decide something (to sin, to love, to turn to Christ, etc.) are those which belong to him.
Let me qualify one important exception. Since you hold to a “prevenient” grace (that is, an antecedent) given to all men, all men now have the equipment on board to turn to Christ...should they decide. They alone will have made that decision. God has done all He will do, it is up to them, now. Again, this is not a trick remark.
Further, I am not denying that other ingredients or inputs may exist in, or impinge upon, the man’s thinking prior to the point of decision. But, man possesses the capacity of deciding on his own. Actually, all kinds of factors will impact the man’s thinking prior, but “unaided or uneffected” means (in my understanding) that in the final analysis only the man’s will was causing his choice. In other words, I am understanding “free will” to refer solely to whether the man remains “free” to choose following all inputs, whatever those may be. Free will, if I understand it correctly, maintains that the man, at the point of a decision, has only to look to his own mental/spiritual/emotional faculties in order to bring about any given decision. Thus, even if he decides due to his fear, his lust, his anger, his integrity, or his whatever, the actual choosing is his, alone.
I added this final part because holding a gun on a man’s family in order to make him sign a confession is not contemplated as proving or disproving “free will”. Coercion and has nothing to do with “free will”. One man sign and the other hold out. Both could still have “free will”, if “free will” is true. As I said, this is not a trick definition.
Divine determinism, on the other hand, contends that man’s thought processes are influenced at all times by God, Himself and every decision is actually the outworking of God’s will.
Do we agree so far?
He WILL accept. But here’s the key point...
He’ll only accept freedom if he comes to a realization that he is a slave. What I am saying is that God gives that revelation of sin to people. Man’s natural reaction to that revelation is to come to Christ. (it’s called irresistible grace)
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
“why bother?”
Can a plant grow where a seed hasn’t been planted?
(that’s why we Christians are needed... seed planting)
using the same logic...
Once we plant a seed, do we get to decide whether that seed grows?
(that’s God’s job)
Irresistible grace is a term and idea not found in the scripture.
There are plenty. My family is one of them. My dad recently had to say goodbye to his father and acknowledge is lack of faith. It’s a tough truth, but KNOWING he was not called to repentance gave my dad peace.
You’re making a blanket statement.
That’s false. John Calvin’s points are based off the Bible.
It is YOU who are calling us “Calvinists first and Christians second”. I never refer to myself that way.
Mr. Rogers, why do you think the book of Romans is called “Romans?”
Answer: It was written by Paul TO THE ROMANS. He discusses the tribes of Israel as well as God’s covenant with Abraham. Then he specifically goes into God’s sovereign plans of election AND destruction. You are writing-off the teachings of an entire book because you don’t know the background surrounding the book.
It was written to CHRISTIANS, including those who were Jewish converts.
And irresistible grace and God determining who must be saved and who will not be allowed to be saved is NOT a part of the teaching of Romans, which is most emphatically about our need to respond to God with FAITH.
A major them is that those who believe - whoever believes - will be saved. Not that God requires some to be saved and others to be damned, but whoever believes will be saved.
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Calvinism is a construct based on the bible.
The 5 Points are NOT from the bible, they are reasoning of man trying to sew together scriptures. That’s why it’s Calvinism instead of the bible.
It’s an interpretation, and it’s WRONG.
God is not willing that ANY should perish, but....
God so loved the WORLD, that he......
LIMITED Atonement is a LIE FROM HELL.
God has not doomed any to hell, Man’s free will is the issue.
When in the last days, God makes his presence undeniable, some people would rather hide under rocks and curse God than acknowledge the true God. This is what sends a person to Hell. The one unforgivable sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit.
Blessed are you, Peter. For this was not given to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven”
Remember that?
“You did not choose me. I chose you”
Remember that?
“those He predestined he also called... etc”
that too...
Maybe you should ask yourself what is so unattractive about a sovereign God.
I guess the truth hasn’t been revealed in your heart yet.
Might want to be careful what you call a lie from hell. That’s a pretty bold statement when there are clear scriptures backing up predestination.
I guess Romans 8:29 was a lie too...
I’m aware. Although it’s a safe assumption that since God hardens the hearts of men (see Pharaoh) so that He can display his power through them, that God can and will draw ALL of his elect. No one resists God’s will.
YOU CANT. I have the principle of Sola Scriptura. Not Dueling Gospels. Calvinism is "another gospel". If it's not, why is it called Calvinism? It's a construct, using man's reasoning from scriptures. However, where it arrives at is WRONG. If you wish to debate from the scriptures on Calvinism, then the game is on. I am ready. Are you? Unlike Calvinists, I do not rely on some other's beliefs - my only guide is the Holy Bible, not the Institutes, or Catechism.
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