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Ernest L. Wilkinson and the BYU tithing police fiasco [a campus admin scandal from a generation ago]
Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | Nov. 1, 2011 | Doug Gibson

Posted on 11/18/2011 3:21:38 PM PST by Colofornian

(To see Cal Grondahl’s cartoon that goes with this post, click here) In the latest issue of Sunstone magazine, Gary James Bergera has a very interesting article, “The Moniteering of BYU Faculty Tithing Payments, 1957-1963,” that involves yet another historical nugget of mirth created by the university’s late president, Ernest D. Wilkinson. Wilkinson, upon assuming the presidency of BYU in the 1950s, was outraged that some BYU professors paid only a partial tithing, and some paid none at all.

(I digress here to admit that I too, was surprised that there were/are tithing shortfalls among BYU professors. I would have that “giving the Lord 10 percent” was something that one wouldn’t have to worry about at the Lord’s University. But it was, and had been for most of the 20th Century. Wilkinson was determined “to use an individual’s tithing history to help determine raises, promotions, and even continuing employment,” writes Bergera.

At one point, Wilkinson told LDS Church President David O. McKay that 27 percent of BYU faculty were either part tithing payers or paid no tithing at all. Wilkinson’s efforts, though, to get detailed reports of faculty tithing records descended into J. Edgar Hoover spoof when he encountered opposition from local bishoprics and stake presidencies. They understood better than Wilkinson the ethical aspects of the Law of Tithing, that taught that it was a private matter between a church member and his ecclesiastical leader. Eventually, Wilkinson was able to get the names of partial and non-tithe payers, but was stymied in his efforts to get specific details.

Wilkinson also received considerable opposition from faculty at BYU, who balked at having their academic credentials be determined by how much tithing they paid. Many faculty members, including department heads, resigned over the rule. At one point Wilkinson groused in his journal that it was primarily “English, political science and history” departments that were in opposition.

One faculty member who found himself in Wilkinson’s aim was Kent Fielding, a BYU instructor who had admitted he no longer had “a testimony of the Gospel.” When asked how he been approved to teach at BYU, Fielding replied that in his interview, apostle (and future LDS President) Harold B. Lee had asked only two questions: “Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?; and, “Have you ever been unfaithful to your wife?”

Wilkinson confronted Lee on Fielding’s claim that his testimony had not been probed during his interview, and Bergera reports, using Wilkinson’s own notes, that it led fiery words between the BYU president and the LDS apostle.

Wilkinson wrote, “… I had told Brother Lee about this at the time, and Brother Lee, whose main weakness as far as I can see is that he cannot accept criticism, had interpreted it as serious criticism on my part of him…” Lee, according to Wilkinson’s recollections, sneered that the BYU president was “naive” if he was unaware that many BYU faculty did not have testimonies of the Gospel. Wilkinson further wrote, “He (Lee) was smarting very much under what I thought was my criticism of him for not having properly interrogated Brother Fielding.”

Fielding, after refusing to pay tithing and answer questions as a protest against Wilkinson’s policy, eventually had his employment terminated.

The policy that Wilkinson eventually crafted and tried to follow was that partial tithe payers would have their raises decreased by the amount they owed on a full tithing. For example, if Wilkinson determined that a professor had robbed the Lord of $600 in his tithing payments, a $1,000 raise for said professor would be decreased to $400. Professors not paying any tithing would be in danger of losing their employment at BYU. Wilkinson insisted more than once that no one was “forced” to pay tithing, while also insisting that any BYU professor who wanted to teach there would pay his tithing.

The policy prompted panicky attempts by some BYU faculty to try to turn back the clock. As Bergera reports, Wilkinson noted in his writings that one professor insisted in his interview that he had paid a full tithing.

When Wilkinson had the matter looked at, he discovered that the professor had gone to his bishop after the New Year and — much to the Bishop’s confusion — had begged that his tithe payment be applied retroactively.

Bergera estimates that over eight years, at least “two dozen (probably more) teachers were dismissed or resigned” due to church problems that had their genesis with Wilkinson’s tithing crackdown.

The BYU leader left the university in 1963 to run a failed U.S. Senate campaign. When he returned, he discovered a church leadership more resistant to the tactics he had advocated during his first term at BYU. As Bergera notes, “current BYU policy strictly prohibits the release of faculty tithing information to university administrators.”

Although I oppose any Wilkinsonian efforts to force tithing payments on any faculty, I am, I confess, surprised that anyone employed by the LDS Church (and that is the employer of BYU faculty) does not pay a full tithe. Maybe it’s because I’m a “born in the baptismal font member,” but before I read Bergera’s piece, I just assumed BYU workers were tithe payers the LDS Church Presiding Bishopric didn’t have to worry about.

This post also ran in Currents, the Standard-Examiner’s digital-only section on politics and culture. For more information on Currents, call 801-625-4400.


TOPICS: History; Moral Issues; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: byu; lds; legalism; mormon
From the article: Gary James Bergera has a very interesting article, “The Moniteering of BYU Faculty Tithing Payments, 1957-1963”

Would have been more accurately titled, , 1957-1963."

Here we have exactly the opposite problem of the Penn State admin issue. Instead of a laissez faire hands-off approach to cracking down, you get an FBI surveillance of personal tithing records of professors to see if they are financially supporting "Zion" [the Mormon church]...And look out when these professors didn't! [Some fired; others had raises confiscated]

From the article: ...Wilkinson, upon assuming the presidency of BYU in the 1950s, was outraged that some BYU professors paid only a partial tithing, and some paid none at all...At one point, Wilkinson told LDS Church President David O. McKay that 27 percent of BYU faculty were either part tithing payers or paid no tithing at all. Wilkinson’s efforts, though, to get detailed reports of faculty tithing records descended into J. Edgar Hoover spoof when he encountered opposition from local bishoprics and stake presidencies.

From the article: Wilkinson also received considerable opposition from faculty at BYU, who balked at having their academic credentials be determined by how much tithing they paid. Many faculty members, including department heads, resigned over the rule. At one point Wilkinson groused in his journal that it was primarily “English, political science and history” departments that were in opposition.

From the article: One faculty member who found himself in Wilkinson’s aim was Kent Fielding, a BYU instructor who had admitted he no longer had “a testimony of the Gospel.” Fielding, after refusing to pay tithing and answer questions as a protest against Wilkinson’s policy, eventually had his employment terminated...Bergera estimates that over eight years, at least “two dozen (probably more) teachers were dismissed or resigned” due to church problems that had their genesis with Wilkinson’s tithing crackdown.

The sheer legalism of Mormonism!

1 posted on 11/18/2011 3:21:41 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
From the article: The policy that Wilkinson eventually crafted and tried to follow was that partial tithe payers would have their raises decreased by the amount they owed on a full tithing. For example, if Wilkinson determined that a professor had robbed the Lord of $600 in his tithing payments, a $1,000 raise for said professor would be decreased to $400. Professors not paying any tithing would be in danger of losing their employment at BYU.

This sounds like more than a tit-for-tat confiscation. Why? Because raises each year are predicated upon a base level that rises accumulatively.

If $1,000 raises were reduced to $400, that would not only impact the ensuing year but years forever down the line!

2 posted on 11/18/2011 3:23:50 PM PST by Colofornian (JoePologists: Those who defend the personality cults of Joe Smith and Joe Paterno)
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To: All
For those who want a theological glimpse into the theological legalistic side of Mormonism -- and how Mormon mandatory tithing is all a part of that, keep reading...especially #2 from the list below...

According to Mormon writings, what makes you "worthy?" Your perfection (3 Nephi 12:48; Mt. 5:48)

[Whereas, in contrast, a good definition of a "Christian" is someone already perfect in the Father's eyes thru Jesus sacrificial death (Heb. 10:14) -- where His perfect righteousness is substituted for our imperfect righteousness. (1 Cor. 1:30). Heb. 10:14 ...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.]

Just to be sure, I looked up "worthiness" (a key Lds concept) in the 1977 "Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" published by church-owned Deseret Publishers.

I found verses like Doctrine & Covenants 59:4: "And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time--they that are faithful and diligent before me."

"Commandments not a few"? -- sounds like a long checklist to me.

I then looked at the 1979 "Topical Guide" in the Lds version of its KJV -- and turned to the "worthiness" entry there: It tells me right up top its related to the concept of "qualifying for" & then proceeds to verses like D&C 31:5: "Therefore, thrust in your sickle with all your soul, and your sins are forgiven you, and you shall be laden with sheaves upon your back, for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Wherefore, your family shall live."

Ah. There it is: The Mormon "strategy." Don't "trust" for your salvation, "thrust in your sickle"

So it sounds like the Mormon god wants plenty of soul labor -- paid labor -- spiritual hirelings -- earned labor for salvation. No free gifts here. No grace here. Just follow the rules, ma'am.

Indeed, the LDS are the "rules oriented" ones: The purity and perfection we seek is unattainable without this subjection of unworthy, ungodlike urges and the corresponding encouragement of their opposites. We certainly cannot expect the rules to be easier for us than for the Son of God... (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 28)

Just look @ all the "rule extensions" Lds have imposed upon their followers in order to make it to the highest degree of afterlife:
(1) You have to be obedient to all the commandments & ordinances of the Mormon god
(2) You HAVE TO TITHE -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"
(3) You have to obey the "Word of Wisdom" -- not drink coffee, etc.
(4) You have to get married -- sorry, no never-married single people allowed
(5) You have to have as many children as possible
(6) You have to perform temple work for the dead
(7) You have to perform endowments essential for this highest degree of salvation
(8) You have to be a member of the right church (Lds)
(9) You have to receive & perform the rites and ordinances established by that church
(10)You have to have Joseph Smith's consent to enter into your highest afterlife

That is 19th-20th-21st century legalism!

Any counter-campaigns pointing out that God's truth is "the concept of free and full forgiveness through Christ" rather than the "earned forgiveness taught in Mormonism" are needed!

3 posted on 11/18/2011 3:27:57 PM PST by Colofornian (JoePologists: Those who defend the personality cults of Joe Smith and Joe Paterno)
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To: Colofornian
the tithe was abolished by Christ.
4 posted on 11/18/2011 3:28:01 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Colofornian
My my, how the God(s) of Mormonism have changed in only one short generation. Back then Communist affilliation was a non-starter. These days, Monson and Oaks give Marxist Harry Ried the pulpit before the faculty and student body at BYU where he bashes the likes of Harold B. Lee, David O. McKay, and Ezra Taft Benson....then brags about being a Temple Recommend holder.

In the same way that that lying scum Romney put his church before his country during Vietnam, and basically dodged the draft to go on an LDS "mission", he will submit to these evil cult leaders in questions regarding our nation if elected president.

5 posted on 11/18/2011 3:38:07 PM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: All
Jesus was ONLY "harsh-sounding" vs. Pharisees and teachers of the law.

Why?

What was so provocative about religious legalism to Jesus?

Let us to look at some of his words on the subject:

* Matt. 15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
* Matt. 16:12: ...guard against the yeast...against the TEACHING of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
* Luke 11:52: ...you have taken away the key to knowledge.
* John 8:44,47: You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies…The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
* Mark 7:6-8,13: He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”…13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

* Matthew 23:2-7, 13-15; 23-34 : 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Here's the apostle Paul on the same subject:
* 1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is EVERYONE who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.” (Gal. 3:1-6, 10)

6 posted on 11/18/2011 3:40:47 PM PST by Colofornian (JoePologists: Those who defend the personality cults of Joe Smith and Joe Paterno)
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To: Colofornian

Are/were there non-Mormon faculty and staff at BYU? Do/did they have to pay the tithe?


7 posted on 11/18/2011 3:43:42 PM PST by Huntress ("Politicians exploit economic illiteracy." --Walter Williams)
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To: Colofornian
I wonder how long until the guy who claims I'm lying about paystubs and tax returns being brought to annual tithing audits shows his face.

I also know of several instances where "inactive" fathers were made to pay years worth of back tithing or they would be kept from attending their children's temple marriages.

8 posted on 11/18/2011 3:45:46 PM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: SENTINEL; All
Back then Communist affilliation was a non-starter. These days, Monson and Oaks give Marxist Harry Ried the pulpit before the faculty and student body at BYU where he bashes the likes of Harold B. Lee, David O. McKay, and Ezra Taft Benson....then brags about being a Temple Recommend holder.

Well, that's Mormonism. It went from promoting communism -- inadvertently world-wide (in the late 19th century)...to condemning communism (Ezra Taft Benson, Harold B. Lee)...to your picture that you show.

Just like Mormonism went from condemning polygamy in 1830, beginning to practice it in 1831, openly promoting it by 1852, declaring the government could never make them give it up (1880), to putting on the breaks in 1890...starting more internal crackdowns in the early 1900s...and then had all of its polygamists die off by the early 1960s...yet still telling their followings starting in the late 50s/into the 60s and all thru 70s that polygamy would be re-instituted when the mormon jesus returns...and telling people that polygamy is STILL practiced on other planets.

Hard to keep track of the current Mormon position on communism/socialism + polygamy vs. monogamy + if skin color matters for the priesthood...on that one, yeah, they say "yes" now...but they still left intact one Book of Abraham passage and five Book of Mormon passages that are overtly skin-colored racism.

Oh...and for those who don't think the Mormon church promoted communism in the late 19th century...think again. They did it thru their "United Order" cities:

ALL: Even the Mormon author mentioned below described Brigham Young’s communist-built community of Orderville, Utah as “pure communism”: "When Brigham Young established Orderville and similar United Orders, John Taylor was less than enthusiastic. He realized that enterprises such as Orderville were pure communism and not the law of consecration. He made this plain after he became President, when in 1882 he sent an epistle to all authorities of the Church in which he bluntly stated: 'We had no example of the 'United Order' in accordance with the word of God on the subject...Our relations with the world and our own imperfections prevent the establishment of this system [i.e. the system of consecration and stewardship spoken of at times as the 'United Order'] at the present time, as was stated by Joseph in an early day, it cannot yet be carried out.'" (George W. Givens, 500 More Little-Known Facts in Mormon History, 2004, p. 169)

The truly unfortunate thing for world history is that John Taylor didn’t go far enough, for while he dismantled Orderville, he left another “United Order” community (Brigham City, Utah) alone. Here is Givens again (a faithful Mormon author):

"One of the most famous utopian books ever written was Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy, published in 1889. Some scholars believe Looking Backward had considerable influence in the making of Lenin's Soviet Russia. If this is true, then [ensuing Lds "prophet"] Lorenzo Snow and the Latter-day Saints must receive some of the credit--or blame. Hearing of the success of the United Order in Brigham City, Edward Bellamy made a special trip to Utah in 1886 to study its operation. There he spent three days with Lorenzo Snow, Brigham City's founder and forty-year resident. Impressed with the thirty to forty industries run by its 2,000 inhabitants and the vitality at that time of one of the most successful United Orders, Bellamy returned home and wrote his influential book." (500 More Little-Known Facts in Mormon History, p. 185).

Way to go, 19th century Mormon leader-“prophets” of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor & Lorenzo Snow!!! They all unwittingly fueled Soviet Communism!

It was…
… Smith’s original idea of a United Order, something he falsely prophesied would be everlasting- see Doctrine & Covenants 82:20; 104:1 – I mean you haven’t taken scissors to those verses yet, have you Rip? So that must mean you still embrace these concepts as “Mormon truth”
…followed by Young’s implementation of these communistic ideas into Utah communities like Orderville & Brigham City…
…with Lds “prophet” Snow being the founder & long-term dictator of Brigham City, which in turn, influenced Bellamy, who in turn influenced Lenin!!!
…and while Taylor didn’t like the orders, he only did a half-mast job of taking apart Orderville, but leaving Brigham City untouched.

9 posted on 11/18/2011 3:52:45 PM PST by Colofornian (JoePologists: Those who defend the personality cults of Joe Smith and Joe Paterno)
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To: Colofornian
I sure am grateful that FLDS/LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young's attempt to seclude mormons from the world with a secret language called the "Deseret Alphabet" failed. We wouldn't be able to easily read all of these original documents from the founders of mormonism.


10 posted on 11/18/2011 4:02:00 PM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: Huntress
Are/were there non-Mormon faculty and staff at BYU? Do/did they have to pay the tithe?

Yes, there is/are (at least one non-Mormon...perhaps a few)

There's a woman with a Christian background who is the advisor to the Christian group on campus. [BYU allows a certain % of non-Mormons to attend; many of whom are of a Christian background]

Do they have to pay the tithe? (No)

11 posted on 11/18/2011 4:12:37 PM PST by Colofornian (JoePologists: Those who defend the personality cults of Joe Smith and Joe Paterno)
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To: guitarplayer1953
the tithe was abolished by Christ.

Where is that written?

I agree that the Lord Jesus made it clear that people who were focused on the letter of the law ('tithing mint and cummin'), and not the spirit ('helping the naked, fatherless, and widows'), were at gross fault.
But He also said, 'Think not that I have come to destroy the Law and the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say onto you, til Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled'.
So, He didn't come to abrogate the Law of God - He fullfilled it.

That said, I don't see tithing as a law. It was a tax specific to maintain the Levites who were dedicated to perform the Religious rites of the Hebrew nation. I don't read it as a law that was timeless (like all of God's laws). It served a specific purpose for a specific nation in a specific period of God's time-line.
In the New Testament time (Christ crucified, risen, and sitting at the right hand of the Father), we recognize that all that we have belongs to God (that has always been the case -- but it must even be more obvious to us understanding that the precious Son of God ransomed us with the payment of His priceless blood). We are to be cheerful givers. Whether that is 90% or 1%, its up to the giver. No tithing, but all we have belongs to the Lord.

12 posted on 11/18/2011 6:02:39 PM PST by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: El Cid
Who was tithe for? It was for the temple minister the Levit's. Why did the receive the tithe? because they did not have an inheritance in the promised land. The tithe was only for the fruit of the land of Israel and only landowners gave a tithe.

Paul did not collect tithes he couldn't because he was not a Levitt Jesus could not receive them either He was of the house of Judea.

The NT tells us to give as the Spirit leads us and that is not to be out of compulsion or undo stress.

Show me where the pastor or church has become the temple or the Levitt.

13 posted on 11/18/2011 7:10:13 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: guitarplayer1953
The NT tells us to give as the Spirit leads us and that is not to be out of compulsion or undo stress.

I agree with that statement. Be a cheerful giver.

14 posted on 11/18/2011 8:46:42 PM PST by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: El Cid

That is what the Lord wants is a cheerful giver if one looks at the history of Israel they continually with held that tithe and did not give it, that is why the Malachi reference of the curse upon them if they did not give of the land. The temple was in disarray the poor were not being taken care of. Jesus does not curse His Bride the Church today. Just like you or I would curse our spouses.


15 posted on 11/18/2011 8:55:39 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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k


16 posted on 11/19/2011 3:09:36 AM PST by BlueMoose
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To: Colofornian

Wait a minute. We were just told on another thread that lds do not require tithes, and no one checks your income.
If that’s true then why is there an issue?
(hum, apparently the men of lds do care and find out how much you make otherwise there would not be a statement “not full tithe payers”, because if it were not required to prove your income no one would know one way or the other) - just saying


17 posted on 11/19/2011 10:41:08 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: svcw
Yep, and they guy who claimed I was flat-out lying about paystubs and tax returns at annual tithing audits is no where to be found this time around.

They teach little children THEY WILL BE BURNED TO DEATH at the second coming if they miss any tithing payments.

18 posted on 11/19/2011 11:37:46 AM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: SENTINEL

Amazing isn’t it. When I said my lds family and friends told me they had to show proof of income, I was called (not exactly liar) but pretty darn close. I pointed out that for me to be told that put the lds group in a bad light, so why would they lie about it. My lds family and friends are very matter of fact about it as though it is a normal thing to do.
Ok, I did not know about the “children burning to death”, total sick.


19 posted on 11/19/2011 12:20:13 PM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: svcw
'Verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming’" (FLDS/LDS "Prophet" Joseph Smith, claiming to speaks for God(s), Doctrine & Covenants 64:23)
20 posted on 11/19/2011 12:33:55 PM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: SENTINEL

Has anyone ping restornu or Ripliancum? They were the big deniers on this issue of ‘pay stub tithing’.


21 posted on 11/19/2011 12:49:43 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they cannot be deceived, it's impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

Also Norm, Sandy and Blue all said it doesn’t happen. (Although Norm was the nicest about it.)


22 posted on 11/19/2011 3:23:53 PM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: svcw

Thanks for the ping.

NOT TRUE


23 posted on 11/19/2011 3:52:04 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: SENTINEL

Just another anti Mormon story. Yawn.


24 posted on 11/19/2011 6:12:54 PM PST by Saundra Duffy ( For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: El Cid

Most Christian faiths believe that a 10% tithe is Biblical and appropriate. Of course, one can find a Bible version and interpret the Bible to suit one’s own agenda. I don’t care.


25 posted on 11/19/2011 6:15:27 PM PST by Saundra Duffy ( For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: BlueMoose
Can you see the word I’m typing ?
26 posted on 11/19/2011 6:23:36 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: SENTINEL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkACOU_dF80


27 posted on 11/19/2011 6:32:48 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: Saundra Duffy

Don’t talk to us about the bible, lawyer, your LDS offshoot sect of mormonism threw FLDS/LDS “Prophet” Joseph Smith’s retranslation in the dumpster after Brigham Young declared it a fraud.


28 posted on 11/19/2011 6:34:26 PM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: BlueMoose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=2rBomCeVbl8


29 posted on 11/19/2011 6:54:28 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: SENTINEL

“Don’t talk to us about the bible, lawyer”

I love the Bible; I have read it cover to cover many times and more than one version, too. I’ll stick with the King James version, mind you.

I like it that when I attend Church we all have the KJV of the Bible. In the days when I attended other Christian churches you never knew which version the pastor was using and people in the congregation would have different versions. It was confusing.

P.S. Being called a “lawyer” really hurts. Ha!


30 posted on 11/19/2011 7:00:39 PM PST by Saundra Duffy ( For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: BlueMoose

What’s not true, that Norm is a nice guy? Stop being so cryptic, it’s boring.


31 posted on 11/19/2011 7:04:20 PM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: Saundra Duffy
Appropriate! Tithing has nothing to do with being Appropriate it has everything to do with a covenant between you and God. The article has everything to do with lds leaders brow beating people into surrendering money to the lds group.
32 posted on 11/19/2011 7:11:33 PM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: Saundra Duffy
Re: 25

You won't find references to tithing in the New Testament (other than the note in Hebrews that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, and thus the Levites, in the loins of Abraham, also paid this tithe). And the references in the Old Testament were unique to the Nation of the Hebrews for the maintenance of the Levite priesthood. A priesthood that has been forever abolished by our Great High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ.

You'll not find references to tithing in the Confessions of the Reformation: the Belgic and Westminster Confessions. Martin Luther did not support tithing,so I presume this excludes the Lutherans.
The Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox churches don't tithe.
I believe many individual Baptist churches require tithing... But I'd hardly call that as representative of 'most' Christian faiths.

But that said, clearly all we have belongs to the Lord. We are told to be cheerful givers and to provide for those who provide us with spiritual food.
I don't see the tithing requirement, but knowing that we owe everything to the Lord, giving back ten percent of what He has given us for his service seems a bare minimum. But that is for the individual to decide.

33 posted on 11/19/2011 7:15:11 PM PST by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: svcw
cryptic ? I'm retired now don't do comsec any more.
34 posted on 11/19/2011 10:10:53 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: BlueMoose
par·en·the·ses (-sz)

2. a. A qualifying or amplifying word, phrase, or sentence inserted within written matter in such a way as to be independent of the surrounding grammatical structure.

I have all ready been lectured here on the use of brackets.

35 posted on 11/19/2011 10:26:29 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: svcw

There is only one statement in #22 and I say that it is not true.


36 posted on 11/19/2011 10:45:53 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: Saundra Duffy
So I guess along with the rest of the LDS offshoot sect of Mormonism you believe that the Book of Mormon is "The most correct of any book on earth", but FLDS/LDS "Prophet" Joseph Smith's "retranslation" of the bible is fraudulent as Brigham Young taught ?

Joseph Smith history teaches that God(s) appeared to tell Joe not to use the KJV bible because it had become mistranslated. So he spent several years "fixing" it, and you discard the fix for the reason for the whole new religion ?

Really, how do you square this with reality ? It bugged me a little for many years when I was a member, it just cannot make any sense no matter how you try ot believe in it.

37 posted on 11/20/2011 10:54:36 AM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: Saundra Duffy
"I love the Bible; I have read it cover to cover many times and more than one version, too. I’ll stick with the King James version, mind you."

The thought process pretzle that must go on inside your head stuns me. When somebody asked me about the JST bible when I was a devout member I would shut up and walk away, then pray for faith.

You stand here essentially openly declaring that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God(s) AND he FRAUDULENTLY "retranslated" the entire bible.

Saudra, step back, open your eyes, be free.

KJV 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Joseph Smith Translation 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

38 posted on 11/20/2011 11:11:26 AM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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