Posted on 11/25/2011 6:55:10 AM PST by marshmallow
Just as I thought.
Do you have anything more to offer than just blanket statements? I’d like to hear it.
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
You should believe what scripture clearly states.
I'm not the one claiming to be a perfectly, Spirit-led 100% of the time Christian. Not even Paul said he was but that it is a battle between the new nature and the old sin nature that only by moving closer to Christ can we even begin to see growth. Paul's warning about the "fruit" of the sinful nature should be familiar to us all but, as Christians, we no longer desire to live that way. In fact, it should be detestable to us to ever think of going there. All Christians receive discipline and chastisement from our heavenly Father, in fact if we don't experience it, we are NOT really his. In II Timothy 1:7, Paul says, "For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline." So by the power of the Holy Spirit within us we learn to gain control over that old nature that is at war with the new. In Hebrews 12:4-8, we are told:
"In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all."
So, we all endure God's correction so that we have victory in our lives over sin and we live holy lives that bring honor and glory to God. Those who do not exhibit this desire to be holy are not showing any indication that they ARE saved. But to BE saved, we come to God in faith and he saves us by his grace and mercy, we do not deserve salvation, but that IS grace after all.
And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
(2 Kings 13:21)
Are you asking this of me or are you joining me in asking it of Judith Anne? Because I have given quite a bit of explanation for my views and I don’t have to rely on “blanket statements”, snide remarks, insults, cartoons or derogatory comments. I think anyone who participates on these threads should be willing to defend their views, don’t you?
Why don’t you look up the meaning of the Greek word that was translated “for” in that verse? I believe you will find that the Greek word is “eis” which can and should be translated “into”. The verse would then read “in the name of Jesus Christ into the forgiveness of your sins”. You see, the forgiveness happened before the baptism.
>>40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.<<
Untoward means “perverse, crooked” and then the following verse says: 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. So they saved themselves by believing on the Lord Jesus. They basically listened to the saving word of Jesus. No one can believe without the calling of the Holy Spirit within.
Well, I can't help but think that those who post threads such as these as OPEN Religion Forum threads are doing so to be challenged because they MUST know they will be. Maybe not so much this particular subject, but I do question why it wasn't posted under a caucus instead, but most all of the recent ones. Do they post them KNOWING we will have something to say JUST so they can criticize us for "ganging up" on Catholics? I'd be curious, wouldn't you?
The greek church believers can tell you differently. You claim to be a greek language expert. I heard all kinds of experts arguing all the time who speak the same language. You are not an absolute voice in all things scripture.
There’s more there than your one hit wonder verses.
Of course, because every bit of the “Sola” stuff depends on first denying that the Holy Spirit is capable of doing what Christ promised it could and would do.
First, they have to claim that Christ lied when he would protect His Church and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. Such folks claim the Holy Spirit let some sort conspiracy among men do exactly what Christ said would never happen. No amount of “invisible church” garbage can camouflage the fact that if the “real” Church was hidden by the explosion of a false form of Christianity, leaving no written records, and leaving no trace of itself even as Christianity swept the world, then Satan prevailed by drowning out the preaching of the Word with something else disguised as Christianity. A clear denial that the Holy Spirit is strong enough to protect the good name of Jesus Christ by protecting His Church and the preaching of The Word.
Second, they claim that for at least two thousand plus years, the Holy Spirit hasn’t found any way to make so much as a commentary on Scriptures from this invisible church available or any other scrap of evidence that there was some sort of hidden, Illuminati style, parallel church in rabbit warrens and at backyard goat cookouts. Only when we were “blessed” by one horny, drunken, priest who “rediscovered” what he claimed was “true” Christianity did the “invisible” church reemerge. Just like every heretic before and since has claimed to be preaching “true” Christianity. In order to agree with Luther one has to agree that the Holy Spirit had been fought to a standstill for almost sixteen hundred. Not only that, he claimed that everyone was predestined to heaven or hell before they were born and therefore we should sin boldly rather than tainting ourselves with the “weak faith” of good works which were actually sins at any rate. A clear denial that the Holy Spirit was dwelling with and protecting Christians or even necessary to guide anyone to Christ.
Third, they claim that Luther was correct when the first thing he did was to toss out portions of the Bible. Somehow, the Holy Spirit hadn't been able to protect the Word from being polluted when books were included in the canon. Luther also claimed several books in the New Testament should be removed as well, but the Holy Spirit couldn’t convince others that Luther was correct about both the Old and New Testaments. So, Luther was right except when he was wrong on the self same topic, the canon. Somthing that portrays the Holy Spirit as a feeble guide for Christians at best. Which begs the question of whether or not Luther could just as easily been wrong about both the Old and New Testaments or if those who followed him should have listened to him and thrown out portions of the New Testament as well. Either way, believing any of that first requires someone to believe the Holy Spirit isn’t what Christ said it was and is no where near as powerful as the forces of Satan. Those who have grown out of the heresy Luther began have to claim the Holy Spirit guides their study of the Scriptures, even though the Holy Spirit was too weak to keep the canon of Scripture pure. In addition, the only answer they have to the tens of thousands of different interpretations of Scripture is either that “everyone else is wrong”, or that disagreements over “nonessential doctrines” don’t matter. That is, each and every one of the millions who have their own interpretation is convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong, or that there are portions of the Bible the Holy Spirit doesn’t care about enough to make clear to those who believe. A clear denial that the Holy Spirit has the power to guide our study of the Scriptures or even to keep the canon pure which means that in reality each individual relies on their own mind and personal inclinations since they do not believe the Holy Spirit is strong enough to even defend the Scrptures from error.
In reality, it is denying the power of the Holy Spirit that is the acid test for all of the groups that have sprung out of the Protestant revolt against His Church, the “Solas” as you call them. In spite of their claims of relying on the Holy Spirit, in point of fact, they have to accept a severely crippled version of the Holy Spirit that doesn’t square with what the Scriptures teach before accepting anything else. While a great many people, by far the majority in fact, accept what they were taught as children including the lies about the Catholic Church and more or less rote defenses of what they were taught, the very first thing they have to accept is that the Holy Spirit is incapable of protecting His Church, incapable of protecting The Word from the inclusion of errors, and incapable of guiding those who study the Scriptures (Not to mention the huge number of translation errors one has to believe the Holy Spirit would permit in order to accept the numerous reinterpretations of Scripture and reliance on obscure alternative word usages such folks claim are required to understand what the Bible really says). Otherwise the fiction of, “essential and nonessential doctrine” wouldn’t have been dreamed up without any basis in Scriptures as a means to try and paper over the huge number of divisions among those who follow non-Catholic imitations of Christianity.
No, they’re not jealous, they’re in denial. Neck deep in denying that the Holy Spirit guides Christians and that Christ was telling the truth when He said the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. They are exactly as the Scriptures describe them, ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of truth and having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.
Those who are sincerely seeking Christ should begin by studying Christianity as it was before those who deny the power of the Holy Spirit formed innumerable cults based on the heresy of Luther, Christianity as it is taught and ever since Christ as been taught, by The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Christ. Anyone who is sincerely seeking Christ and begins the study of Scriptures without the innumerable reinterpretations of the deniers but only with the Bible ends up coming to the Catholic Church. There are elements of the Truth in most of the imitations, but the whole Truth as taught by Christ and the Apostles isn’t in them. The Father of Lies hates seeing anyone actually study the Bible and Christianity rather than memorizing out of context verses and convenient reinterpretations or “translation errors” that always deny the power of the Holy Spirit. Which is exactly why there are so many lies about the Catholic Church and why Luther began his heresy by throwing out portions of Scripture and calling other portions nothing but straw.
Regards
Scriptures that contradict “unconditional” eternal security
From the gospels
Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
-note that Christ is speaking to His disciples here, not the world.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
-now we know that we are saved by grace and not works, but conduct plays a part in our eternal destination.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
-notice it’s not enough merely to know that he is Lord (or even to call him that), but we must “do” the will of God.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
-note that sin/iniquity will cause many to lose their love (just like the church at Ephesus in Rev.chpt2) Also note that it’s not how you start the race, but how you finish!
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
-this is an interesting parable of the Lord reckoning with “his servants”. It is a fearful thing for those who have produced no fruit for the kingdom of God
Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it
-It’s important to note here, that both of these individuals heard the word, but only the one who obeys the commands of God can know that he is resting on the rock!
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
-note that this person “heard the word”, “received the word (with joy)”, “believed for a while”, but ultimately “fell away”. So we see that it is possible to begin the race, but not finish.
Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
-it is interesting that Christ used the term “cast away”- this term is used by the apostle Paul in I Cor. as well, and refers to the special punishment of an apostate believer.
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
-self-explanatory verse indeed. Let us not be as Lot’s wife, who should have escaped destruction but looked back.
Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
-A few things I would like to draw your attention to. First, this is a “servant” looking for “his LORD”. Next notice the statement he makes “my Lord delayeth his coming”. This would not be applicable to an unbeliever, as we know they are not looking for the return of Christ. Note that he also begins to live an immoral lifestyle as a result of his judgement that his Lord “delayeth his coming”. If he were an unbeliever, he would already be committing these types of sins, not just then entering into them. Maybe most importantly, note that this “evil servant” is given his portion with “the unbelievers” (note it doesn’t say with the other unbelievers). The fact that Christ makes this dichotomy, speaks volumes to the fact that this individual was indeed a believer. Also supporting this view, is the fact that Christ further states that a person who “knows the LORD’s will” and doesn’t do it, is in worse shape than the one who “knew not” the LORD’s will!
Also from the gospel of John:
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
This parable emphatically renounces the doctrine of o.s.a.s. Note in verse 2 that the branches “IN HIM” that do not bear fruit will be taken away. Notice in verse 6, if a man does not “ABIDE” (or remain/continue) in Christ he is cast forth “withered” (indicating it used to be alive) and cast into the fire.
Look at the parable of the prodigal son.
Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing. 15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Just a few quick notes about this parable. Note both of these were SONS (verse 11). Note also that in verse 24 that the son was dead and is alive “AGAIN” (implying he was alive to begin with!) Verse 32 also echoes this thought. Remember Ephesians 2 refers to the time when we were “dead in trespasses and sins” and Jude speaks of those “twice dead”.
more warnings from Acts and the epistles
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
-the early church knew it was important to CONTINUE in the faith. They didn’t merely hold an evangelistic crusade, and send the folks on their way with an easy-believism message, they CONFIRMED the souls of the disciples and exhorted them to “CONTINUE IN THE FAITH”. (Doesn’t this sound so contrary to the watered-down gospel we hear preached in today’s pulpits?)
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
-note first off Paul proclaims that we stand “by faith”. Also he states that we shouldn’t be cavalier about the matter, but rather take heed. Of special emphasis is verse 22 which states we will be “cut off” if we don’t CONTINUE in his goodness.
********BEFORE WE ENTER THE NEXT PHASE OF THE STUDY*****KEEP IN MIND WHO IS BEING ADDRESSED. In the example of I Corinthians, the letter is addressed to ****
I Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours
I Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
-this couldn’t apply to unbelievers, as their bodies do not contain the precious Holy Spirit in their temple.
I Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
-remember the letter is addressed to believers, and yet why all the warnings if there were/are no consequences.
I Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
-what a frightening concept. Even the great apostle Paul knew of the possibility of falling away. Modern translations of the bible have watered down this verse, and most liberal commentaries state that Paul was only speaking of rewards being lost. But notice the pronouns I, my body, it, I, I, myself. Note also Paul uses the term “castaway” (same greek word used for reprobate in other places). Remember earlier in the gospels, Jesus had warned about man losing his soul or becoming cast away.
I Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Now stick with me here. Jesus said “in the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established”. Here we have the “wilderness wanderers” as I call them. To the best of my knowledge, I know they are referred to at least 3 times in the new testament as an example for believers NOT to follow. (I Cor, Hebrews, Jude). Chapter 10 is a continuation of the warning Paul gave in chapter 9:27 (note chapter 10 begins with “moreover”indicating a continuation of thought). The wilderness wanderers are a type or foreshadowing, if you will, of the Christian life. First we leave the “Egyptian bondage” of sin. Remember Ephesians 2 refers to the time when we were “dead in trespasses and sins”. Then we have the baptism experience that they had. Remember they passed through the cloud and the sea. We are baptized with water and the Holy Ghost. Jesus said that those that believe in Him would have “living waters” flowing from his innermost being. But they never made it to the promised land. We look for a city “which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” Notice in verse 11 that it says these things were written for OUR EXAMPLE, and finally he says in verse 12 to take heed, because the possiblity of falling exists.
I Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain
-We stand by faith, but if we do not keep in memory those things that we have learned, it is possible to “believe in vain”. There are a lot of those IF-THEN statements in the bible.
II Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain
- refer to the commentary above.
II Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Why do we need to examine ourselves, if it is a once-for-all done deal? Let us heed the warnings of scripture and keep close watch on our eternal souls!
Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor
-the modern twist on justification by faith is a perversion of the gospel. Truly we are justified by faith, but that faith is not a license to sin. For if we go back to our old way of life, we become a transgressor (one who breaks the laws of God).
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
-the possibility of falling from grace exists, and mere human good works are equally dangerous if trusted upon for righteousness.
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God
-remember this letter is written to Galatian believers (just like the Corinthians who received a similar warning). He is emphatically renouncing the teaching that a person can live an immoral lifestyle, and float through the “pearly gates”.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
-again, this doesn’t sound like the modern message of “everything’s ok, once-saved-always-saved”. We ought to give the most earnest heed to the most important thing........our eternal destination!
Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
-yet another of those IF-THEN statements of the bible....pretty self-explanatory again.
I Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. (KJV)
Here we see the importance of spiritual maturity when it comes time to appoint elders to the local assembly. Timothy is warned that a recent convert should not be placed in a position of spiritual authority because his pride could cause him to fall under the same judgement/condemnation of the devil. We know that the devil’s judgement is none other than the lake of fire. I’ll post this in several translations, so you can really get the feel of this passage from the Greek language:
I Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. (NIV)
I Timothy 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.(NASB)
Again I will point to two things-#1 this person is a “convert” ( I must ask what have they been converted to? Is it not Christianity?). #2 this person is in danger of falling under the same judgment of the devil.
I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils
-you can’t “depart” from the faith, if you’re not “in the faith” to begin with right?
Power-Packed warnings from Hebrews
Many preachers and scholars would love to remove this book from the bible altogether. The reason for that is that the book of Hebrews completely destroys the pillars of the o.s.a.s foundation, causing it to crumble. Often, those who do accept the doctrine taught in Hebrews, dismiss the warnings given as being only for the Jews. The only problem with that, is that they have no problem accepting the blessings given in the book (intercessory prayers of Christ, supernatural faith, divine provision, access to the throne of grace, etc.). But if one aspect of the book is to be applied to Christians, then so should the “whole counsel” of the book. That being said.....let’s take a look.
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end
-yet another IF THEN statement, showing the necessity of overcoming, perservering faith in the Christian life.
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin
-here we see that not only must we take heed, but that sin, can adversely affect our faith. It is also worthy of note that the phrase “departing from the living God” is used. Just as I Timothy 4 stated, it is possible to depart from Him. He said he would never leave or forsake us, but we are creatures of free will and must make the decision whom we will serve.
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
-remember earlier in I Corinthians, we were introduced to the “wilderness wanderers” who are our example NOT to follow. Verse 14 starts out with one of those IF-THEN statements demanding overcoming faith. Again, it is noted that SIN has an adverse affect on our faith. And remember we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. And that we stand “by faith”.
Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it
-again we see we should not be cavalier about our eternal destination, but have a godly fear.
NOW FOR THE AGE-OLD DILEMMA
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned
-Now I want to tread very lightly here, and be careful not to add-to or take-away from what the text says. But let me say this. It is apparent that this is speaking of a BELIEVER!!! Notice he is “once elightened”, “tasted of the heavenly gift” (the greek word for taste is the same one used when an earlier text stated Christ tasted death for every man!), “ were made partakers of the Holy Ghost” (you cannot partake of the Holy Ghost by merely attending church, taking communion, being baptized, participating in rituals. You are only a partaker of Him, when He is in you!), he has “tasted” the good word of God, and finally enjoyed the “powers of the world to come” (It would be impossible for an unbeliever to be granted this priviledge by God! I don’t know of too many unbeliever/sinners who have enjoyed the powers of the world to come!)
Also, I would like to add that is not for us, as Christians to say when a person has “fallen away” to such a place. We should defer all judgement unto the Son. The phrasing here of falling away, doesn’t seem to imply simply a mistake made by a believer, for truly no one is without sin. Forgiveness is the priviledge of every born-again believer according to I John 1:9. This seems like a much more serious offence of turning one’s back on God altogether. But having said that, I don’t want to diminish at all what the Holy Ghost is saying in this passage.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
-now right out of the gate, the myth that all of our past, present, future sins are already forgiven is shattered. (v.26) Next notice that is is a far worse punishment for the one who hath counted the blood werewith he was SANCTIFIED (impossible that this could refer to anyone but a believer) than for the one who had never known the way of truth. Verse 30 is clear.....he will judge HIS PEOPLE. We would do well not to water-down the fear of God (which scripture says is “the beginning of wisdom”).
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears
-the absolute need for holiness is exemplified here- without it NO MAN (including a believer) will see the LORD. Verse 15 speaks of the dangers of “failing” of the grace of God. The old testament example of Esau is applied here. Remember Jesus asked, what would a man give in exchange for his soul?
Continuing On
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
-James asks a simple, but powerful question. Does merely believing without action bring about salvation? An interesting plumb line is established. If you merely believe, but do not obey the word of God, there is no difference between that and what the devils do. Harsh language indeed, but the truth will make us free. Verse 20 states that type of faith is not a living/saving faith, but a dead one!
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
-note it is written to the “brethren” who have “erred from the truth” (how can you err from the truth if you were not previously established in the truth?). Such a person is in danger of having his soul (same greek word used for spirit) die! Very scary indeed.
I Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
-note that we are kept through faith and we’ve already learned about living and dead faith
I Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear
-If we’re going to see the Lord, we’re going to have to be holy, as he has commanded us. We’re also not supposed to spend our time here in a state of ease. Remember the warning “woe to them who are at ease in Zion”?
I Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
-Remember in Hebrews, it says the Lord will judge his people. Powerful imagery is used here with words like “scarcely”!
II Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
-Peter is admonishing those who have forgotten that they were “purged” from their old sins. Verse 10 tells us what our attitude toward eternity should be......give diligence-not slothfulness to our eternal calling and election. The good news is, if we do those things, he says we shall never fall.
II Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
-any time liberty is preached as a license to sin, corruption is the end result. This warning echoes that of Hebrews chapters 6 & 10. Note the person had “escaped the pollutions of the world” and “turned from the holy commandment”. There would be no need to emphasize that they RETURNED to their lifestyle, unless they had escaped it through Jesus earlier! From WASHED to wallowing in the mire. What a horrific image!
II Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
-we are supposed to be diligent and not slothful when it comes to personal holiness. It is interesting to note that false teachers would “wrest (or twist)” the writings of Paul to their own destruction. Also we must be on guard of “falling” from our steadfastness, which could lead to spiritual destruction.
I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. -Yet another IF-THEN statement of the bible. Of course, what is the implication there if you don’t confess ? ? ?
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
-the doctrine of o.s.a.s is exactly what verse 4 describes...”turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness”. Now look at verse 5, and you have yet another reference to the “wilderness wanderers”, who started out well, but never made it to the promised land!
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 1:13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever
-it is noteworthy that they are “clouds without water” whose “fruit withereth” (implying it had borne fruit at one time) , and was “twice dead” (remember the prodigal son) . Such an individual is referred to as a “wandering star” destined for blackness of darkness!
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent
-note that these people had “fallen” and needed to do the “first works” or else their candlestick would be removed.
Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
-this group had heard and received the LORD, but if they didn’t repent they would be in danger of possibly missing out on the rapture, or even worse having their name blotted out of the book of life.
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
-again he is talking to the CHURCH (which is not a building but the people), and they are warned that they will be spewed out of His mouth if they don’t repent. (sidenote: How could they be spued/vomited out, if they were not ‘in Christ’ to begin with?
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book
-again this possiblity of being taken out of the book of life is presented by the LORD. Why would He even mention it, if it were not a possibility. And how could it be taken/blotted out, if it were not in there to start with? Here’s another verse to confirm this.
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
-there we have in the mouth of two or three witnesses, that this is a possibility, and we MUST take heed!
The Eastern Church has long reverenced holy icons, which they believe have healing powers. Not in themselves but by the connection with holy persons and by the Grace of God. Our Lord himself sometimes used physical objects to heal, such as the mud that he rubbed on the blind man's eyes. He could and did heal with a word.Not his time? Why not? To demonstrate e his humanity and his connection to mankind. Likewise the belt means that Mary was an actual historical person and not just a character in a book.
The term the Council used, and the term that the Greeks still use is Theotokos, which means God-bearer. The term “Mother of God,” is perhaps unfortunate in that Protestants cannot get it out of their heads that this does NOT mean that Mary was the mother of the Triune God, but only of Jesus who was both God and Man. It may be that they tend toward the Nestorian doctrine that Mary was the Mother of Jesus, or rather his huiman nature, but not his divine nature. But the The point of the Council in conferring this title was to make clear that Mary brought not just a man into this world but the God-man. She was the means of the hypostatic Union. The Church disavowed Nestorius because his useage seemed a regression to Arianism. or adoptionism. The notion that Jesus became divine only at his baptism or after his Resurrection, but not at his beginning.
Not only that but then take a subject discussed on this thread and post an entirely new thread with a lengthy defense of their side of that issues.
Could you please show the post where I have ever claimed that or is that another example of Catholics injecting some meaning that isn’t there? I have never claimed to be an language expert. I simply search for truth and meaning using resources available.
>> You are not an absolute voice in all things scripture.<<
Nor have I ever claimed to be. I simply use scripture as it is written. That in fact was inspired by the real expert. If the scripture I post contradicts what the RCC teaches I would suggest it’s not the scripture that is in error.
Of course there is. Notice in each place it has already been done. None of that not knowing till we are “past the gate” nonsense taught by the RCC.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Paul even states that if you think works play any part that grace is no longer grace.
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
He even rebukes Peter for applying rules of conduct for salvation.
Gal. 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Now, either Paul is lying or your interpretation of those verses is in error. Paul even goes so far as to say that if conduct affects salvation than Christ died in vain.
Gal. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
You cannot have it both ways. Either it’s grace or it’s works.
John 3:14-18 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 6:28-29 28Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
Luke 18:9-14 9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.'
13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
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