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To: CynicalBear
What other "vital matter" could you possibly be talking about?

What about the passage that says "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved? So is it believe only or believe AND be baptized. I read both in my Bible?

84 posted on 11/25/2011 6:37:02 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: don-o
So were they saved before they were baptized? How about the thief on the cross?

If we must be baptized to be saved it would be works based. Salvation is not based on what we do but on what Christ did. Scripture over and over again shows that we do not perform works to be saved, but that we will perform works if we are saved. Baptism is not the cause of being saved but a response to being saved. The question then is this If you are saved, and you know what baptism means and that it was commanded by Christ, why would you not be baptized?

A person does not become baptized to be saved, but a person is saved and is therefore baptized.

Even two of the early Christian writers indicate that the verses you refer to are not actually found in the early manuscripts. Eusebius (Quaestiones ad Marinum I) says that they are not in "accurate" copies of Mark and are missing from "almost all" manuscripts; Jerome (Epistle CXX.3, ad Hedibiam) testifies that almost all Greek manuscripts of his time lack vss. 9-20.

So even the Catholic Church would have to admit that the verses of Mark 16:9-20 should not be used for doctrine.

88 posted on 11/25/2011 7:19:56 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: don-o; CynicalBear
What about the passage that says "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved? So is it believe only or believe AND be baptized. I read both in my Bible?

Considering for a minute that it does not specify water baptism......

Mark 16:14-18 14Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.

Do you also adhere to the rest of the teaching that Jesus gave in this passage?

Do you cast out demons?

Do you really believe that if you drink any deadly thing, it will not harm you? Do you actually do it?

Do you really believe that you can handle snakes? Do you do it?

Do you speak in tongues? Jesus said it would be a sign following those who believe

Do you lay your hands on the sick and see them recover?

Jesus said those signs WILL ACCOMPANY those who believe. Does that mean if you don't do those signs, you don't really believe? Or do you only pick what part of the passage you want to believe and practice and ignore the rest?

FWIW, I also see many in the Pentecostal movement fall into a similar error, picking what to believe out of that passage about the signs and denying the baptism part.

Either way, it's inconsistent and hypocritical to cherry pick apart a passage and based a doctrine on one part of it and not take it all as truth.

140 posted on 11/26/2011 7:15:33 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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