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Roman Catholic Church and Islam really do worship the same God
Apprising Ministries ^ | June 27, 2009 | Ken Silva pastor-teacher

Posted on 12/12/2011 7:10:39 PM PST by RnMomof7

The Roman Catholic Church Preaches A Different Gospel, No Gospel At All

Men and women please believe me; I am not trying to be an alarmist as it is my firm conviction in Christ that I have only saying what needs to be said. And truthfully, I am even doing so reluctantly. As Apprising Ministries covers the slide into apostasy within mainstream evangelcialism we can observe Purpose Driven Pope Rick Warren, a most prominent “Protestant” Southern Baptist minister, Double-Minded On The Reformation And Roman Catholicism. Or take the egregiously ecumenical Emerging Church aka Emergent Church, now morphing into Emergence Christianity, which we’ve been showing lately has now even penetrated into mainstream evangelicalism.

In his recent book Finding Our Way Again Emergence Guru Brian McLaren makes the following ridiculous statements and nary an eyebrow is raised:

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have more in common than many people realize because they all share a primal narrative, and they all flow from a common sacred fountainhead: a single figure, at once famous and mysterious, a Middle Eastern man named Abraham of Ur.

We can date Abraham’s birth to about 2000 BC, in modern-day Iraq, near present-day Nasarif. Like Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad—and like us—Abraham was was raised in a pluralistic, polytheistic world. During his lifetime, he lived side by side with others who honored many different gods and praticed many different religions.

And during his lifetime, Abraham—like Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad—had an encounter with God that distinguished him from his contemporaries and propelled him into a mission, introducing a new way of life that changed the world… How appropriate that the three Abrahamic religions begin with a journey into the unknown. (22, 23, emphasis mine)

No doubt the bats are very much alive in the belfry. Muhammad may indeed have had a visit from the spirit world, but as we compare his god with the one true and living God of the Bible below, we know with certainty it was not a spirit from the LORD God Almighty; the only God there is. So as bad as it is dealing this postliberal cult of the inclusive Emergent Church with their rethinking [read: reinterpreting] the Christian faith what really needs to re-discovered today is the proper view of how the evangelical Protestant must approach this critical subject of apostate Roman Catholicism, which as you’ll see, holds the same dead wrong view as Maharisi McLaren.

One of the ways to recapture proper theology concerning the genuine Gospel of Jesus Christ is to look more closely at the first chapter of Paul’s letter to the churches in the southern part of the Roman province of Galatia. We know it of course as the Book of Galatians. Those of you who use the NIV Study Bible actually have the benefit of a very good introduction to this Epistle, by a man who’s worked on numerous translations of the Bible, Dr. Robert Mounce, who tells us:

Galatians stands as an eloquent and vigorous apologetic for the NT essential truth that man is justified by faith in Jesus Christ – by nothing less and nothing more – and that he is sanctified not by legalistic works but by the obedience that comes from faith in God’s work for him, in him and through him by the grace and power of Christ and the Holy Spirit (1985 ed., 1779)

Let’s stop right here for a minute. What Dr. Mounce, a noted evangelical biblical scholar, has just elucidated is actually the heart of the matter before us in the purity of God’s Gospel. In other words, how is a man saved from his debt of sin before a Holy and Righteous God? And clearly a debt requires a payment of some kind, does it not? For the wages of sin – [which is the debt] – is death (Romans 6:23). However, you may recall, that Christ Jesus already paid that wage–that debt–with His own death.

That’s why Dr. Mounce can say – “Galatians stands as an eloquent and vigorous apologetic for the essential NT truth that man is justified by faith in Jesus Christ – by nothing less and nothing more.” It is truly such a shame, and a travesty of God’s justice, that this has been allowed to slowly erode over the nearly 500 years since an Augustinian Monk named Martin Luther nailed those 95 Theses Of Religion upon the door of Castle Church Chapel at Wittenberg. Theses, which essentially said – “We protest” – and would become the very document that would end up igniting the whole Protestant Reformation.

In this ecumenical time, where Satan is busy continuing to lay his foundation for the coming One World Global religion, it’s vital that we come to fully understand what is at stake here. For we need to get this absolute Truth from our head down into our very hearts, and all the more as what professes to be Christianity is falling further away from the Lord in this growing apostasy. Dr. Mounce is firmly reminding us of this matter of grave importance that we are going to have to defend in increasing measure when he says – “that man is justified by faith in Jesus Christ – by nothing less and nothing more.” And we state the only Gospel which has any saving power more concisely by saying that a man is solely justified by the grace of God alone–through faith alone–in Christ alone.

A Christian Proclaims The True Gospel

As you can see, one need not be a graduate of Oxford University with a degree in navel contemplating to understand the Gospel, nor does he need the a-logic double-speak from the fools in the Emergent Church to figure this all out. At least Pope Benedict Arnold, it’s not difficult to understand the true Gospel of God if you are meek and humble enough to take off your funny hat, divest yourself of your priestly robes and truly follow the Christ you say that you are the Vicar of. After all Jesus of Nazareth did say – Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart (Matthew 11:29). And remember the Master also said – Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5).

What I have been endeavoring to do here lately at AM is to get us to look at whether or not anything has really changed regarding the importance of our proclaiming the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ. We’ve used this passage in Galatians 1 beginning with verse 6 as our text, and it’ll be helpful to read through this one more time, as we see here how Paul reacted to those who added to, and thereby specifically changed–even slightly–the Gospel that he preached.

For example, let’s consider this “adding” to the Gospel from Nostra Aetate “the Declaration on the Relation of the [Roman Catholic] Church to Non-Christian Religions, which was Proclaimed by His Holiness Pope Paul VI – October 28, 1965”

3. The [Roman Catholic] Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham’s stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God’s saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham’s sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch’s call, and likewise that the salvation of the [Roman Catholic] Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people’s exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the [Roman Catholic] Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8) (Online source).

Now we must ask, does this even remotely sound like the true Gospel? Or is it in reality a capitulation in order to be careful not to upset anyone? Is this man-pleasing and timorous tripe issued from a so-called Vicar of Christ a bold stand like the Master’s; one willing to be found among those which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake (see–Matthew 5:10), or is it actually trying to live in “peace” with another religon at the expense of the Truth? Men and women, we need to help people see that words like these could never have been uttered by a true Vicar of Christ.

Meet The god Of Islam

Let me give you a little background concerning the world religion of Islam that the Roman Catholic Church esteems and further claims that they – adore the one God. The founder of the Islamic religion, Muhammad, was born around 570 AD in Mecca. Islam means “submission” to God, while Muslim, taken from the verbal root of the same Arabic word, designates “those who submit.” According to the Islamic version of his history, sometime after his 25th birthday while Muhammad was “praying and meditating” on Mt. Hira he heard a voice tell him to “proclaim.” Later the voice told him “Thou art the messenger of God, and I am Gabriel.”

Ira G. Zepp, Jr. tells us in his book Islam, “…over a period of twenty-three years, up until his death in 632, Allah [God], through the angel Gabriel, communicated the words of the Quran to Muhammad.” The Encyclopedia Britannica says: “The will of Allah, to which man must submit, is made known through the sacred scriptures, the Qu’ran (Koran), which Allah revealed to his messenger, Muhammad. In Islam Muhammad is considered the last of a series of prophets (including Adam, Noah, Jesus and others), and his message simultaneously consummates and abrogates the ‘revelations’ attributed to earlier prophets.”

The Quran, is the highest source of authority for the Muslim and is considered to be the pure word of God, with no human thoughts or errors within it. On The True Religion, an Internet website devoted to Islam, Dr. Gary Miller, a former Christian missionary with a Masters Degree in Theology who converted to Islam, states the Muslim position on the Bible. In his article A Concise Reply To Christianity – A Muslim View, Miller writes: “…the Quran states that Christians have access to the truth in their scriptures. But it does not catalogue the sixty-six small books called the Bible and label them as accurate. In fact it condemns those who would claim divine inspiration for something composed by a man…part of the Bible…falls into this category…the Muslim considers that the Bible contains the words of God, and more words besides these.”

While Islam does teach the existence of just one God (Quran 5:73; 112:1-4), Allah is so transcendent, incomprehensible and unapproachable, that it could not possibly be the true God of biblical revelation, Who shows Himself to befriend men (Exodus 33:11), to be merciful to them because He loves them (Romans 5:5-8), and, in the doctrine of the Trinity, He reveals Himself as God the Father, God the Son–Who is Jesus the Christ, and God the Holy Spirit (Deuteronomy 6:4; 2 Peter 1:17; John 1:1,14; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In fact, the Quran admits that Allah is not the God of the Bible in 5:73-75 where it states, They do blaspheme who say: God is one in three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one.

And finally, the Quran portrays a different Jesus from the one we meet in the Bible. It says Jesus was not crucified (4:157), is not deity (5:17, 75), nor is He God the Son (9:30). The Quran does call Jesus a great prophet but, as Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry points out, Islam teaches that “Muhammad is Allah’s greatest and last prophet and his message supercedes all other past prophets including Jesus.” This stands in stark contrast to what Jesus of Nazareth taught, and to what the historical accounts of His life in the New Testament clearly tell us. (adapted from Keeping You Apprised of: Islam)

I must ask again, does this sound like a religion that adores “the one God?” While we should never be hostile to individual Muslims the true katholikos Church of Christ must vigorously oppose the blasphemous religion of Islam – who in fact – denies the one God! Let me emphatically state it again, the rubbish we read from Vatican II – “the Declaration on the Relation of the [Roman Catholic] Church to Non-Christian Religions – which was Proclaimed by His Holiness Pope Paul VI” – could never have been uttered by a true Vicar of Christ.

No One, Not Even A Pope, Can Add To The Gospel

And if one should need further proof you need only return to the Book of Galatians, chapter 1. Before we run through this passage of Scripture quickly one last time, let me share this from F. Roy Coad in the New International Bible Commentary.

Something of the teaching which was brought by the Judaizing teachers to Galatia can be learned from later references in the letter. It accepted the Messiahship of Jesus, but added another requirement to that of faith in Christ: acceptance of the Jewish obedience, particularly as symbolized in circumcision and the keeping of the ethical and ceremonial law (Ac. 15:1; Gal. 3:2, 10; 4:10, 21; 5:2; 6:12, 13) (pp.1417,1418).

Galatians 1:6 – I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. And I have conclusively shown in numerous articles concerning its apostate Roman Catholicism the Church of Rome does indeed teach a gospel of works/self-righteousness. Following is Can. 842 §1, §2 from the Code Of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church:

A person who has not received baptism cannot be admitted validly to the other sacraments. The sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and the Most Holy Eucharist are interrelated in such a way that they are required for full Christian initiation.” (Online source, mine)

Now, here is what Luther himself had to say about verse 6 of Galatians 1:

Note the resourcefulness of the devil. Heretics do not advertise their errors. Murderers, adulterers, thieves disguise themselves. So the devil masquerades all his devices and activities. He puts on white to make himself look like an angel of light. He is astoundingly clever to sell his patent poison for the Gospel of Christ. Knowing Satan’s guile, Paul sardonically calls the doctrine of the false apostles “another gospel,” as if he would say, “You Galatians have now another gospel, while my Gospel is no longer esteemed by you” (Online source).

And we know that what was being taught in Galatia by these Judaizers was not really another gospel in that it had any real power. Look at verse 7 again here in Galatians – which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than we – [the Apostles] – preached, let him be eternally condemned. In the original Greek–this is that word anathema–that the Council of Trent was so fond of tossing around, and essentially means “accursed from God.”

The great Church Reformer Dr. John Calvin points out here:

As [Paul] proceeds in defending the authority of his doctrine, his confidence swells. First of all, he declares that the doctrine which he had preached is the only gospel, and that the attempt to set it aside is highly criminal. But then he was aware, the false apostles might object: “We will not yield to you in our desire to maintain the gospel, or in those feelings of respect for it which we are accustomed to cherish.” Just as, at the present day, the Papists describe in the strongest terms the sacredness with which they regard the gospel, and kiss the very name with the deepest reverence, and yet, when brought to the trial, are found to persecute fiercely the pure and simple doctrine of the gospel. Accordingly, Paul does not rest satisfied with this general declaration, but proceeds to define what the gospel is, and what it contains, and declares boldly that his doctrine is the true gospel; so as to resist all further inquiry.

Of what avail was it to profess respect for the gospel, and not to know what it meant? With Papists, who hold themselves bound to render implicit faith, that might be perfectly sufficient; but with Christians, where there is no knowledge, there is no faith. That the Galatians, who were otherwise disposed to obey the gospel, might not wander hither and thither, and “find no rest for the sole of their foot,” (Genesis 8:9,) Paul enjoins them to stand steadfastly by his doctrine. He demands such unhesitating belief of his preaching, that he pronounces a curse on all who dared to contradict it. (Online source)

And then, in verse 9, Paul will repeat his anathema for anyone who has the temerity to alter the Gospel Christ Jesus gave to him. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. As I have already shared with you the proclamation of the pure Gospel of our Lord is so important and so critical that the Apostle Paul felt constrained to repeat his stern rebuke. Let us never forget that God the Holy Spirit takes His Gospel of Jesus Christ so seriously that He saw to it that this warning was preserved in Holy Scripture.

However, somehow today all of this has been simply reduced to “significant differences.” And that is what is so disconcerting. But this is what the Church of Jesus Christ, the Evangelical Protestant church must come to grips with. How could we reduce this Gospel that man is saved by God’s grace alone–through faith alone–in Christ alone–simply to “significant differences”? If the Apostle Paul was willing to eternally condemn anyone who preached something different, and if the Reformers were willing to die for their proclamation of this same Gospel, then what in the world has happened to us today?

Does The Church Really Not Love Mankind Enough To Tell The Truth?

The truth is summed up in one word–compromise. We have decided that God “understands” that we don’t want to offend anyone. After-all, if we upset someone, why they might not believe the Gospel. That’s of course if we even get around to preaching it to them. In actuality though what we are really saying is: “I’m afraid to make someone angry with me,” which all of us understand as no one likes to have people angry with them. However, sometimes this is exactly what they need to stimulate their thought process. As in – “that person made me so angry I’m going too prove them wrong!” And, I’ll have you know, not a few people have come into the Kingdom of God via that route.

Let me bring this all together. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is simply not negotiable! Our Lord did what He did, and said what He said, and He does not change, no matter what culture we find ourselves in. This is the absolute Truth, and we just do not have the luxury of “adapting” the Gospel message to any group of people we must speak to. And while we never want to be offensive in how we are presenting this one way in which men can be saved, the fact remains that we are admonished in Scripture – For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18). The unregenerate in the Emergent Church would do well to have a “conversation” about this for a change.

In the end, our job is to tell people the truth, and then to leave the reaction to our presentation of the Gospel–and the results–to the Person of God the Holy Spirit. When you really think about it, this is really not such a bad thing; after all, it is God’s Gospel, Christ did the work and the Holy Spirit is to convict and empower. Men and women, remember we are but our Lord’s messengers. However, those that preach any other gospel than the one that was preached by Paul and the other Apostles–even if it might be remarkably similar–are not really preaching any gospel at all. So by now you should be able to see, this dangerous ecumenical flirtation with the spiritual Harlot of Rome is a whole lot more than “significant differences.”

For when all is said and done; it’s either justification–by God’s grace alone–through faith alone–in Christ alone, or it is no gospel at all. While “close” may count in horseshoes, it sure has no place in spiritual matters where the Gospel is all–or nothing at all. And this must never be compromised in any way, or for any one, no matter how noble and religious that person may appear. And for those of us who are Christ’s ambassadors to tell the world anything else is to hold out a false hope; an empty hope; which is really no hope at all.

Let me close now with these words from the late Dr. Carl F.H. Henry:

God who stands and stoops and speaks is God who stays: He it is who preserves and governs and consummates his cosmic purpose. But the awesome wonder of the biblical revelation is not his creation and preservation of our vastly immense and complex universe. Its wonder, rather, is that he came as God-man to planet Earth in the form of the Babe of Bethlehem; he thus reminds us that no point in the universe is too remote for his presence and no speck too small for his care and love.

He came as God-man to announce to a rebellious race the offer of a costly mercy grounded in the death and resurrection of his only Son and to assure his people that he who stays will remain with them forever and they with him. He is come in Christ incarnate to exhibit ideal human nature and will return in Christ glorified to fully implement the Omega-realities of the dawning future (from his book God, Revelation, and Authority, last paragraph).

And if you think that God the Father is going to take lightly the Gospel of His only Son–Jesus Christ Who was brutally crucified as atonement for our sins, friend you had better rethink again. For God the Holy Spirit tells us in the Bible that He wrote:

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:5-9).

He who has an ear, let him hear…for the time grows ever near…


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: calvinismisdead; islam; rome; romeacityinitaly
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To: Bellflower

Because it is a picture of a moment in time of her being his mother. Do you have pictures in your Family.


81 posted on 12/12/2011 10:37:45 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Bellflower

Because it is a picture of a moment in time of her being his mother. Do you have pictures in your Family.


82 posted on 12/12/2011 10:37:50 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Bellflower

Ignorance—Invincible and Vincible

by James Akin

From Our Store: Witness of Suffering (eBook)

In moral theology, ignorance is defined as a lack of knowledge that a person ought to have. Ignorance is distinguished from mere nescience, which is a lack of knowledge that a person has no need of. For example, a person who did not know the square root of 1429 would be ignorant of it if he were taking a math test, but he would be nescient of it if performing a task that didn’t require the number.

Moral theology divides ignorance into a number of categories. The two I will consider here are invincible and vincible. Ignorance is invincible if a person could not remove it by applying reasonable diligence in determining the answer. Ignorance is vincible if a person could remove it by applying reasonable diligence. Reasonable diligence, in turn, is that diligence that a conscientious person would display in seeking the correct answer to a question given (a) the gravity of the question and (b) his particular resources.

The gravity of a question is determined by how great a need the person has to know the answer. The answers to fundamental questions (how to save one’s soul, how to preserve one’s life) have grave weight. The answers to minor questions (the solution to a crossword puzzle) have light weight.

The particular resources a person has include (a) the ease with which he can obtain the information necessary to determine the answer and (b) the ease with which he can make an accurate evaluation of the evidence once it is in his possession. The graver the question and the greater the resources available, the more diligence is needed to qualify as reasonable. The lighter the question and the fewer the resources available, the less diligence is needed to qualify as reasonable.

Just as it is possible to show less than reasonable diligence, it is also possible to show more than reasonable diligence. Diligence can be supererogatory (and praiseworthy) if one shows more diligence than would be expected from an ordinary, conscientious person. Diligence can be excessive or scrupulous (and blameworthy) if someone spends so much time seeking the answer to a particular question that he fails to attend to other matters he should attend to, or if he refuses to come to a conclusion and continues seeking even when he has enough evidence.

Depending on its type and degree, ignorance may remove, diminish, leave unaffected, or even increase one’s culpability for a materially sinful act (cf. CCC 1735, 1746, 1859). Conversely, it may have the same effects on one’s imputability for a materially righteous act. Here we will deal only with the effects of ignorance on one’s culpability for sin,

Invincible ignorance removes one’s culpability for a materially sinful act, whether one of omission or commission (CCC 1793). Vincible ignorance may variously affect one’s culpability for a sinful act, depending on the kind of vincibility. If some, but insufficient, diligence was shown toward finding the answer, the ignorance is termed merely vincible. If little or no diligence was shown, the ignorance is termed crass or supine. If one deliberately fostered the ignorance then it is termed affected or studied.

If vincible ignorance is merely vincible, crass, or supine, it diminishes culpability for the sinful act relative to the degree of diligence that was shown. If a vincibly ignorant person showed almost reasonable diligence, most of his imputability for the sin could be removed. If he was crassly ignorant, having shown little or no diligence compared to what was reasonable, little or none of his imputability would be removed.

Affected or studied ignorance can increase culpability for a sin, especially if it displays hardness of heart, whereby one would commit the sin irrespective of any law that might exist concerning it. Such an attitude shows contempt for moral law and so increases culpability (cf. CCC 1859).

Potentially, ignorance can diminish or remove imputability for any kind of sin. However, no one is presumed to be ignorant of the principles of moral law since these are written on the heart of every man (CCC 1860). It is possible for a person to be invincibly ignorant that an act is required by natural law. This may be true if the act involves a point that is not obvious, if the person is not mentally quick enough to discern the application of natural law to the case, or if he has been raised to strongly believe in a system that denies the point of natural law. However, such ignorance must be proven, not presumed.

In practical use, the terms vincible and invincible may pose problems for those unfamiliar with Catholic moral terminology. For many, vincible is a wholly unfamiliar term and invincible can suggest that which can never be overcome, no matter how much diligence is shown. Because of these difficulties, it may be advisable in practice to speak of innocent (invincible) and culpable (vincible) ignorance when addressing such people.

However, other individuals (notably radical traditionalists and Feeneyites) may view one as suspect if one substitutes the innocent/culpable ignorance terminology. When addressing such individuals, the standard terminology should be used.

A special case is the application of vincible and invincible ignorance to salvation. Failure to embrace the Christian faith (infidelity), total repudiation of the Christian faith (apostasy), and the post-baptismal obstinate denial or willful doubt of particular teachings of the Catholic faith (heresy) are objectively grave sins against the virtue of faith. Like any other grave sins, if they are committed with adequate knowledge and deliberate consent, they become mortal sins and will deprive one of salvation.

Also like any other grave sins, their imputability can be removed, diminished, unaffected, or increased by the varying types of ignorance. Invincible ignorance removes culpability for the sins against faith, merely vincible ignorance diminishes culpability (sometimes to the point of being venial), crass or supine ignorance will affect culpability for them little or not at all, and hard hearted, affected ignorance will increase culpability for them.

For those who have had their culpability for sins against faith removed or diminished to the point of veniality, they are not mortal sins and thus will not of themselves deprive one of heaven. A person who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ through no fault of his own (or, by extension, through his merely venial fault) can be saved—if he otherwise does what is required for salvation, according to the level of opportunity, enlightenment, and grace God gives him (CCC 847, 1260).

In such cases, people are not saved apart from the true Church. Though they are not “fully incorporated” into the mystical Body of Christ, they are “joined” or “related” to the Church Vatican II’s language) by the elements of saving grace God has given them. One might thus speak of them as having been “partially incorporated,” though not obtaining membership in the proper sense (Pius XII, Mysitici Corporis 22).

Unfortunately, there are a number of erroneous views regarding salvation and invincible ignorance that need to be pointed out. First, the fact that someone is invincibly ignorant of the true faith is not a ticket to heaven. A person who is not culpable for sins against faith may still be culpable for other mortal sins—the same ones people of faith can commit—and may be damned on that account.

Second, the fact that someone is invincibly ignorant does not mean that they should not be evangelized. Even if they are not culpable for sins against faith, the fact they are ignorant of the true religion and do not have access to the sacraments means that they are more likely to commit mortal sin and thus more likely to be damned. Christ did not leave us the option of only evangelizing some peoples (Mark 16:15) or of only teaching them some doctrines (Matt. 28:20). Consequently, it is a false understanding of evangelism or a false spirit of ecumenism that would suggest that classes of people can be left in total or partial ignorance of the true faith on the pretext that they are invincibly ignorant and should not be disturbed.

Third, those who have accepted the Catholic faith are in a special position concerning innocent ignorance. Vatican I taught that God gives special grace to those who have embraced the true faith so that they may persevere in it, “not deserting if he [God] be not deserted.” As a result of this special grace, “those who have received the faith under the teaching authority of the Church can never have a just reason to change this same faith or to reject it” (Dei Filius 3; ND 124, D 1794, DS 3014). This applies, of course, to those who have genuinely accepted the Catholic faith under the influence of the Magisterium, not those who—though baptized or received into the Church—never actually accepted the Catholic faith due to absent or grossly defective catechesis.

Fourth, some radical traditionalists, those known as Feeneyites, assert that while invincible ignorance might excuse sins against faith, one would not thereby be excused from the necessity of baptism for salvation. This is false, since invincible ignorance excuses from acts of omission (such as failure to be baptized) as well as acts of commission. If one is invincibly ignorant of the requirement of baptism but would seek baptism if one knew it was required, then the lack of baptism will not be held against one. This is expressly taught by the Church (CCC 1260). One would thus be recognized as having baptism of desire, at least implicitly.

Fifth, Feeneyites sometimes assert that there are no individuals who are invincibly ignorant of the necessities of baptism and embracing the Catholic faith. This position reflects a misunderstanding concerning what constitutes reasonable deliberation for many in the non-Catholic world. If someone has never heard of the Christian faith, or if he has been taught all his life that the Catholic Church is evil, then it could well be that he would not discover the truth of the Christian faith or the Catholic Church merely by exercising reasonable diligence in weighing the various religious options presented to him.

In many parts of the world it is easy for people to display reasonable but not supererogatory diligence and be invincibly ignorant concerning the Christian faith in general or the Catholic Church in particular. The assertion that there are no invincibly ignorant people also is manifestly contrary to the teaching of the Church, which acknowledges that there are “righteous people in all religions” (CCC 2569).

© This Rock, Catholic Answers, P.O. Box 17490, San Diego, CA 92177


83 posted on 12/12/2011 10:51:45 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

Please don’t give me what seems like a whole long book to read written by someone other than yourself. It isn’t a fair use of my time. Say it in your own words. I don’t have the time nor the inclination to wade through the vast amounts of often vague platitudes, ideas extrapolated from a few hardly related scriptures and the esoteric seeming babblings Catholics so often send my way. I always say if you can’t say it in your own words then you don’t own it.


84 posted on 12/12/2011 11:14:47 PM PST by Bellflower (Judas Iscariot, first democrat, robber, held the money bag, claimed to care for poor: John 12:4-6)
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To: Bellflower

In your opinion. Absurd on the face of it, but fanatics see what they will.


85 posted on 12/12/2011 11:22:00 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: netmilsmom
Won’t happen. In fact, I predict that this will be a very long thread, with tons of Catholic bashing and a veritable square dance of self-righteousness.

Ya know, I am a born again Christian. I often witness my faith in Christ to others. If they have honest disagreements with me or do not understand what I am saying, even if they do not believe God exists, I do not consider them as bashing my faith. I consider that it is my burden to help them understand who Christ is and what He has done for them.

There are times when mean spirited people who are ugly are bashing God, Jesus and having faith in them. Even then I remember that I once was like them and try to have patience and love towards them. If all one thinks if someone disagrees with you is that they are bashing you I do not think that you will have the proper love towards that person. If you are right in your beliefs you ought to be able to defend them without being so defensive as to label those who honestly disagree with you as bashers.

86 posted on 12/12/2011 11:23:13 PM PST by Bellflower (Judas Iscariot, first democrat, robber, held the money bag, claimed to care for poor: John 12:4-6)
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To: Bellflower

You mean you struggle to read more than a paragraph at a time?


87 posted on 12/12/2011 11:24:23 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS
In your opinion. Absurd on the face of it, but fanatics see what they will.

Once again, a lack of logical rebuttal with name calling.

88 posted on 12/12/2011 11:25:49 PM PST by Bellflower (Judas Iscariot, first democrat, robber, held the money bag, claimed to care for poor: John 12:4-6)
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To: Bellflower
Are you seriously saying Jesus would be “embarrassed” that he is shown as a baby in his mother's arms? And that a mother, in this case Mary, “would be a little off” to continually show him as a baby in a picture? How horrible of a thing to imply, if that's what you really meant. I tend to think Jesus has a little more on his plate then being “embarrassed” over a “baby picture” as you imply.

I was going to stay out of this whole thread but what you said is just preposterous. And no Catholic has ever thought of Mary as a “goddess”. If you heard that it was from some other person with no knowledge of Catholicism at all.

What is wrong and why do you seem to feel so angry and attacked by Catholics who have made a special place in their hearts for the one woman chosen to give birth to Jesus Christ? It in no way lessons my love of my God to have admiration for the woman chosen to bring him into this world! The very fact that he became human through a virgin birth ranks up there pretty high as a central tenant of most of Christianity. There is nothing wrong with celebrating that! It does not make Mary a goddess or Jesus any less. I could go on and on but unless you have a specific question for me I'll stop here.

89 posted on 12/12/2011 11:27:36 PM PST by MacMattico
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To: RobbyS
Yeah right. I have read paragraphs and paragraphs of the writings of Catholics. I am sorry but yes, they are hard to read. Not because I am stupid as I do understand what they are saying, at least usually. But they are exceedingly long winded and I disagree with so much it is hard to know where to start. Again, why don't you put things into your own words. It would be more fair to the reader. How would you like it if I gave you chapters and chapters to read out of a book written by some long winded protestant preacher that you didn't agree with. You wouldn't like it.

I am perfectly interested in what you have to say in your own words. For one thing then I know that you own what you are saying and understand it yourself and how you understand it. If you want to give some paragraphs out of a book to support what you have already clearly said in your words that would be different.

90 posted on 12/12/2011 11:32:41 PM PST by Bellflower (Judas Iscariot, first democrat, robber, held the money bag, claimed to care for poor: John 12:4-6)
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To: MacMattico

It’s gotten really late and I am getting tired. Will try to answer you later. You misunderstand where I am coming from and also in my opinion Catholics put far more on Mary in written Catholic doctrine than just honoring her as the mother of Jesus. That means though, that I have to dig through doctrines about just what Catholics do believe about Mary and who she is to Catholics right out of Catholic doctrine. That will be work. I have done it before. I cannot believe that any Catholic that knows Catholic doctrine about who or should I say what Mary is suppose to be can say that they merely honor her as the mother of Jesus and no more.


91 posted on 12/12/2011 11:40:10 PM PST by Bellflower (Judas Iscariot, first democrat, robber, held the money bag, claimed to care for poor: John 12:4-6)
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To: Bellflower

You spew out rhetoric but not much logic. Mohammed mined the teachings of Jews and Christians, so we might surmise that he intended to worship the God of Abraham, whatever his personal conception of it was. But as he did not write, nor did his personal secretaries compile into its present form either the Koran nor the Hadiths, Islam does contain besides his thoughts, the views of his followers. The first Christians to encounter his followers thought them Christian heretics, although probably best thought of as like the Jews in their insistence on the unity of God, and a rejection of the Son. A son who, btw, had the bad manners to be born as Jew.


92 posted on 12/12/2011 11:41:07 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: Bellflower
Because of how many Catholics venerate Mary to the extent that she is a goddess and have doctrines about her that hardly show a difference, whether Catholics want to admit it or not, what many Catholics end up doing is worshiping Mary.

I and many other Catholics on Free Republic are sick of being told by ignorant, bigoted people that we worship Mary. Who tells you what you believe? Certainly no other FReeper does, and if they did, you would rightly reject it. Yet time after time, day after day, ignorant people -- are they your friends? -- tell Catholics what we believe and who we worship. I am finished being polite about it, that attitude is pure bigotry. Now, show some courage, and go tell a Moslem that Mohammed was a liar, if you want to witness for your pitiful, fraudulent church.

93 posted on 12/12/2011 11:41:14 PM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: Bellflower

No, we are not Nestorians, and Mary is more than the mother of a prophet. Unlike either Luther or Calvin, you do not pay much honor to Mary.


94 posted on 12/12/2011 11:44:16 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: Bellflower

I wasn’t going to ask, but I knew you were a born again Christian. I can tell by the way you attack Catholics. You aren’t Catholic, haven’t studied Theology at a Catholic school, but are some how able to recite what you think Catholics believe and you some how know how the image of Mary has made all of us Catholics worship her as a goddess. I don’t know where you get this information from, but why not talk to a Priest and learn what Catholics really believe in. They are open to talk with you just as I am when you come knocking on my door and I politely take (and read) your pamphlets.


95 posted on 12/12/2011 11:48:51 PM PST by MacMattico
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To: Bellflower

I will not argue with you. I will not take my understanding of my Catholicism and my extensive study of my beliefs and change them because one clueless born again Christian has some sort of hatred toward the Catholic church. And it is hatred when you try to tell me I worship Mary and post angry sounding rants to other people about our church. Don’t waste your time searching for Catholic doctrine that you can twist to tell me how wrong I am. How about take that time and go help someone in need this Christmas season. Christmas, ya know when Jesus was a baby born in a manger to his mother, Mary?

And why do you even care what I believe? Your tone in no way makes me want to seek spiritual advise from you. Is that what you think Jesus wants, for you to put other Christians down because they feel an emotional and spiritual tie to the woman who gave birth to him on this
earth?


96 posted on 12/13/2011 12:18:53 AM PST by MacMattico
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To: Bellflower
Ok. Lets say what Paul Says

I am looking for what Paul Says about people who do not hear the gospel are judged on what they do know. Somehow I can not find it. But all those words pertain to ignorance of the Gospel thus invincible ignorance term. Does a baby or Child or mentally retarded adult or adult person trying to do good without the true gospel responsible to go to hell. It all comes to that in a nutshell. No.

97 posted on 12/13/2011 12:37:24 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: RnMomof7
all flow from a common sacred fountainhead: a single figure, at once famous and mysterious, a Middle Eastern man named Abraham of Ur

This false claim illustrates the peril of putting Abraham up on a pedestal.

Abraham was never God, and is the source of nothing.

God is the source of all good things.

And whatever Islam worships, it isn't the Heavenly Father of Christ.

98 posted on 12/13/2011 2:15:49 AM PST by DNA.2012
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To: RnMomof7

So that’s all you have? One picture, as opposed by two thousand years of history? This “article” is an Epic Fail.


99 posted on 12/13/2011 2:20:29 AM PST by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: johngrace

One reason we are not to have any graven images is that God wants to have fellowship with us directly. He is immediately available for fellowship when we face Him, confess our sins to Him directly, through faith alone in Christ alone.

A graven image merely becomes a counterfeit substitute for that direct relationship He has made available to us.


100 posted on 12/13/2011 2:32:48 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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