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LDS Church, through Church News, praised Hitler, Nazi Germany
Ogden Standard-Journal ^ | Dec. 13, 2011 | Doug Gibson

Posted on 12/15/2011 8:04:42 AM PST by Colofornian

(To see Cal Grondahl’s cartoon that goes with this post, click here) History is blunt. Left to itself, it doesn’t spin or gloss over unpleasant facts. The positive side to unvarnished history is that it can prevent future mistakes. There are many examples in history of religions enabling evil. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not an exception to this rule. A glance at the Dec. 9, 1933, LDS “Church News,” published with “The Deseret News,” contains a particularly unpleasant “puff piece” on Nazi Germany, and its leaders, Adolf Hitler, as well as Joseph Goebbels.

It’s titled, “Mormonism” in the New Germany,” and penned by the unfortunately over-enthusiastic Dale Clark, is grotesque in its effusive praise for Hitler. Here is an example: “As a specimen of physical endurance Hitler can easily take his place along side the athletes who are usually taken as classic examples. His 14 year struggle which brought him to power in Germany put him to a terrific physical strain (sic). Besides the great responsibility there has been trials and conflicts, and campaigning so strenuous that it has required his attention night and day, many times making it necessary for him to travel great distances by auto or plane, catching up on his sleep underway to fit him for the multitudes who would gather to hear him wherever he had time to stop.”

It’s amazing today to read such a sidling, fawning account of the 20th century madman, and I wonder if the Nazis controlled or edited what Clark submitted from Germany. The alternative is even worse to comprehend. In other parts of the article, the author sycophantically points out similarities between LDS Doctrine and Nazi Germany. Readers learn that Hitler and Goebbels lead “Word of Wisdom”-type lifestyles and do not drink or smoke. Also, the German custom of “Fast Sunday,” where Germans fast and donate the cost of the missed meals to a winter charity fund, is extolled for its similarity to Mormonism. Clark writes, again in press-release style, “… it has the important purpose of developing that spirit of sacrifice that is so being stressed in the new Germany, and also of creating more of a feeling of unity and brotherhood through voluntary mutual help.”

Early in the article, Clark writes, ominously, that religious freedom flourishes in Nazi Germany, except for “a few sects (which) have been prohibited or restricted.” We can guess at least one people of faith persecuted in Hitler’s Germany at that time — the Jews. And this leads to the most disturbing part of Clark’s national hagiography: finding a missionary moment in Nazi Germany’s persecution of Jews. After detailing previous difficulties to get access to Germany’s archives to do genealogy, Clark writes, “Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.”

It is impossible to read that and not shiver with repulsion at why the “old record books” stood ready and waiting for use. Clark’s effusive cheerleading for Nazism is a dark moment in LDS history. But, as mentioned, it is history, delivered in a blunt, pure fashion. It underscores the enabling that many organizations, religious or otherwise, used to have a presence in the heart of evil. Church President Heber J. Grant, no doubt worried about persecution Mormons might receive, urged members in Germany in 1937 to get along and not cause problems. Another disturbing example — as late as 1939 — of Mormon enabling of Nazism was remarks in a Nazi media organ written by West German LDS mission president, Alfred C. Rees. Like Clark, Rees enthusiastically compared Nazism with Mormonism. (1)

There are more courageous exceptions, of course. One Latter-day Saint who stood up to Hitler’s rule was Helmuth Hubener, who died a martyr at 17, tortured and beheaded in 1942 for belonging to an anti-Nazi group and publishing anti-Nazi leaflets. Hubener, who is the subject of a Gunter Grass novel, was first repulsed by Nazism as a boy when he witnessed anti-Semitism in his local ward. Hubener was quickly excommunicated by local authorities. However, his excommunication was later reversed by LDS authorities, who said local German leaders had not followed proper procedures. According to historians Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, Hubener’s leaflets show that the teenager regarded his opposition to Nazism as a component of his religion. Hubener’s final words to the judges who sentenced him to die, “Wait. Your turn will come,” underscore his courage and resolve.

Hubener’s branch president was a fervent Nazi, who played Hitler’s speeches at the branch. Another branch member, Heinrich Worbs, was tortured at a concentration camp for calling a state-honored Nazi a “butcher.” Worbs, according to Keele and Tobler, was so physically ruined after his detention that he died months after release.

Clark’s article from 1933 fascinates me as much for its style as its repulsive cheerleading. It contains several examples of modern totalitarian propaganda efforts, that were also used, and refined, by Soviet-led communism. There’s the effusive praise for the leaders, praise for the party (in one instance Clark uses the phrase “originality and political genius of the Hitler party” to tout relief efforts in Germany), and the use of the terms “voluntary” and “unity” as propaganda phrases. For an example, go back to the third paragraph of this piece, where Clark writes, “… it has the important purpose of developing that spirit of sacrifice that is so being stressed in the new Germany, and also of creating more of a feeling of unity and brotherhood through voluntary mutual help.” One more example of modern propaganda includes Clark’s description of posters from youth Nazi organizations against tobacco and women’s cosmetics.

As mentioned, blunt history can also be a teaching tool. It’s doubtful the ugliness of Clark’s Church News article would ever be repeated today. Unfortunately, when adverse history is not blunt but is instead de-emphasized, massaged, or rationalized, it can be repeated. To read the Dec. 9, 1933, Deseret News and Church News, go here.

(1) Keele and Tobler, Sunstone, November/December 1980.


TOPICS: History; Moral Issues; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: hitler; inman; lds; mormon; nazis
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From the column: There are many examples in history of religions enabling evil. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not an exception to this rule. A glance at the Dec. 9, 1933, LDS “Church News,” published with “The Deseret News,” contains a particularly unpleasant “puff piece” on Nazi Germany, and its leaders, Adolf Hitler, as well as Joseph Goebbels. It’s titled, “Mormonism” in the New Germany,” and penned by the unfortunately over-enthusiastic Dale Clark, is grotesque in its effusive praise for Hitler.

You need to understand that the Deseret News in Utah is not your normal newspaper. It's owned by the Mormon church. Therefore, Mormon journalists and Mormon editors in a published piece paid for by Mormon tithe-givers to Lds, Inc. were furnishing propaganda on behalf of Nazis and Hitler!

An example of Mormon CHURCH funished pro-Nazi propaganda:

From the column: Early in the article, Clark writes, ominously, that religious freedom flourishes in Nazi Germany, except for “a few sects (which) have been prohibited or restricted.” We can guess at least one people of faith persecuted in Hitler’s Germany at that time — the Jews. And this leads to the most disturbing part of Clark’s national hagiography: finding a missionary moment in Nazi Germany’s persecution of Jews. After detailing previous difficulties to get access to Germany’s archives to do genealogy, Clark writes, “Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.”

From the column: Clark’s effusive cheerleading for Nazism is a dark moment in LDS history. But, as mentioned, it is history, delivered in a blunt, pure fashion. It underscores the enabling that many organizations, religious or otherwise, used to have a presence in the heart of evil. Church President Heber J. Grant, no doubt worried about persecution Mormons might receive, urged members in Germany in 1937 to get along and not cause problems. Another disturbing example — as late as 1939 — of Mormon enabling of Nazism was remarks in a Nazi media organ written by West German LDS mission president, Alfred C. Rees. Like Clark, Rees enthusiastically compared Nazism with Mormonism.

Hmm...a Mormon "enthusiastically compared Nazism with Mormonism."

To be fair, Christianity neglected to fully respond to the Nazi threat in the 1930s. Still, clarion calls existed in the U.S. to oppose the Nazis. A good example is E. Stanley Jones' 1937 book, The Choice Before Us. (Jones was a Methodist missionary to India who worked inter-denominationally to some degree)

1 posted on 12/15/2011 8:04:56 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
(Oh. And before a poster does a double-knee jerk with full extension and accuses the journalist -- Doug Gibson -- of being an "anti" Mormon, Gibson is a Mormon!)
2 posted on 12/15/2011 8:08:54 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: restornu
In light of your very recent mention of "propaganda," wanna see some real Mormon Church propaganda from less than 80 years ago?

A real coincidence in timing of your remark, given that Mormon columnist Doug Gibson published this two days ago!

3 posted on 12/15/2011 8:10:37 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Colofornian

Bull Crap.


4 posted on 12/15/2011 8:16:04 AM PST by Logical me
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To: Colofornian

In the ‘30’s all sorts of groups were enamored of the Soviets (New York Times) and of Nazi Germany. Take Lindbergh as an example too. I’m not dismissing the LDS on the Nazi’s but you have to understand the times. Pretty much the whole world was amazed on how Germany rebuilt itself under Hitler. We can look back and shake our heads on how could they be so stupid as to embrace what went on then. I’m not defending the LDS on this. Again, you have to look at the environment at the time.


5 posted on 12/15/2011 8:17:53 AM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: Colofornian

The Mormon concept of becoming gods and Hitler’s concept of beoming Übermensch (supermen) are not very dissimilar.


6 posted on 12/15/2011 8:22:25 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Logical me

mormon guy wrote the article about mormons - bull? Not so much.


7 posted on 12/15/2011 8:23:42 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: Colofornian
There were also Catholic and Protestant religious publications that praised the Nazis, not to mention favorable press received in secular publications. The first major condemnation of Nazism by a religious leader was that of Pope Pius XI in 1937, shortly before his death and four years after Hitler's accession to power and the true nature of the Nazi regime became evident. However, numerous Catholic clergy and laymen in both Germany and this country (Father Coughlin) supported Hitler. Ditto for the Protestants. For every Dietrich Bonhoeffer, there were dozens of "German Christians" who endorsed the Nazi regime, in both pulpit and pew. There were Nazi sympathizers among American Protestant clergy, e.g., Gerald L.K. Smith.

There were Mormons complicit in supporting the Nazis. However, they were a very small minority in a German nation that was about 55% Protestant and 35% Catholic. Even more to shame, there were thousands of men of partial (one-quarter to one-half) Jewish ancestry who served in the German armed forces during World War II, a few even holding the rank of general.

8 posted on 12/15/2011 8:26:33 AM PST by Wallace T. (Shoot, shovel, and shut up)
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To: SkyDancer

And look at how the same people were enamored with Obama. Pretty much the whole world was amazed and even fainting at the feet of this international idiot. We can look back and shake our heads after the Flavor-Aid has worn off and ask how they have been so stupid to embrace that empty suit and ignore his troubling past and current friends and allies.


9 posted on 12/15/2011 8:27:08 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Exactly. People seventy years from now will wonder how the world was enamored over Obama. He got the Nobel before he even did anything. It’s amazing how stupid people can be over someone.


10 posted on 12/15/2011 8:32:39 AM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: Logical me

What exactly is “bull crap”?


11 posted on 12/15/2011 8:33:31 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Logical me
From the column: To read the Dec. 9, 1933, Deseret News and Church News, go here.

For those who would questiont his, just click. (It pulls up the article itself)

12 posted on 12/15/2011 8:34:09 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: SkyDancer

Given the nearly fatal consequences of collectivism in the Plymouth Colony and the Jamestown Colony, one would think America had long ago learned its lesson regarding collectivism (”community” as William Bradford called it).

One would think wrongly, unfortunately.


13 posted on 12/15/2011 8:45:43 AM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

“The Mormon concept of becoming gods and Hitler’s concept of beoming Übermensch (supermen) are not very dissimilar.”

One need not look back in history or religion to find delusions of grandeur.

Many ‘crats and cops suffer such delusions. And, let’s not forget educators, AgencyPerson trough feeders, ad nauseam.


14 posted on 12/15/2011 8:49:12 AM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: SkyDancer
I’m not dismissing the LDS on the Nazi’s but you have to understand the times. Pretty much the whole world was amazed on how Germany rebuilt itself under Hitler. We can look back and shake our heads on how could they be so stupid as to embrace what went on then. I’m not defending the LDS on this. Again, you have to look at the environment at the time.

Obviously too many were "entranced" with Hitler and Nazism.

The article goes further, though. Take this part: After detailing previous difficulties to get access to Germany’s archives to do genealogy, Clark writes, “Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.”

Obviously in 1933 it had not yet rose to the persecution of 1938 and then what followed with the holocaust in the years after. Yet this statement by the Mormon church was still racist (what they referenced as "the racial question.") Why would distinguishing the races to such an emphasis be deemed "patriotic" by the Mormon church.

No matter what you say about the current of the times, nobody was holding a gun to the Mormon church's head in 1933, forcing them either to make racist-claims-as- patriotism or even to run the propaganda piece at all!

15 posted on 12/15/2011 8:49:41 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Colofornian

I understand that. All I was saying was at the time in the 1930’s people were enamored of what was happening in Europe. This was before Germany had its concentration camps for Jews. I am not defending the LDS in this. All I’m saying is that was the way people saw Germany.


16 posted on 12/15/2011 8:53:28 AM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: Colofornian
It’s amazing today to read such a sidling, fawning account of the 20th century madman

What an absurd comment. He's reading a 1933 publication. I guess it's "amazing" that someone would bother to dig back into 1933 to find something to complain about, but it's hardly surprising to read something nice about Hitler from 1933.

Does the author remember that we actually had an Olympics in Germany in 1932? We were long away from the war, from the otrocities, from the knowledge of what Hitler really was. Even the Catholic church wasn't screaming about the evils of Hitler in 1933.

I'm sure we would fire the editor of the "LDS Church News" today, if he wasn't dead and buried along with Hitler, the 2nd world war, the depression, and a host of other things from the 1930s.

Maybe next week the author can write a scathing editorial about Howard Hughes.

17 posted on 12/15/2011 9:33:28 AM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: SkyDancer

As I recall Winston Churchill “praised” Hitler circa 1936 saying in effect that If England had the same difficulties he hoped a man like Hitler would arise.


18 posted on 12/15/2011 9:37:02 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: SkyDancer

Joe Kennedy Sr., Charles Lindberg and Leo Penn all praised Mister Hitler. In fact Lindberg was supposed to make a major speech at the Boston Garden on December 8, 1941.

It was cancelled.


19 posted on 12/15/2011 9:37:55 AM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: Colofornian

Praising Hitler in 1933, is just a tad different than praising him in 1941, don’cha think?


20 posted on 12/15/2011 9:40:10 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
As I recall Winston Churchill “praised” Hitler circa 1936 saying in effect that If England had the same difficulties he hoped a man like Hitler would arise.

I can say unequivocally that was NOT Churchill....Churchill was the lone voice in the wilderness, as early as 1934, warning a war-weary Britain of the threat of Hitler.

21 posted on 12/15/2011 9:41:38 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: Colofornian

So did the New Youk Slimes.


22 posted on 12/15/2011 9:42:00 AM PST by Anti-Christ is Hillary
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To: Colofornian

“LDS Church, through Church News, praised Hitler, Nazi Germany”

So did the New Youk Slimes.


23 posted on 12/15/2011 9:42:44 AM PST by Anti-Christ is Hillary
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To: Anti-Christ is Hillary

I’d even be willing to bet that in 1933, there were Jews praising Hitler, because they probably figured Hitler was only going to go after the “bad” Jews.


24 posted on 12/15/2011 9:44:33 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: Colofornian
This is a really stupid piece. Hitler had only come to power in 1933, the year it was written, and had been appointed Chancellor by a democratically elected President because he was the head of the plurality party in the Riechstag. Very few in America had his true number yet.

This is just a hit piece, regardless of who wrote it.

25 posted on 12/15/2011 9:46:55 AM PST by colorado tanker
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To: Logical me

No, accurate.


26 posted on 12/15/2011 9:49:06 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: Colofornian
this statement by the Mormon church was still racist

And we know how racism had been wiped out in all other faiths by 1933, so this is clearly an outrageous abberation by this apostate religion of mormonism.

Seriously, again, history is a fun topic and the author should study it some to understand context. Our own country had yet to go through it's civil rights period.

27 posted on 12/15/2011 9:50:07 AM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: dfwgator

“... He said that if he had been an Italian he would have been a Fascist, and as late as 1938 he stated that if England were ever in the same straits that Germany had been in 1933, he hoped that England would find “her Hitler.” The eminent Anglo-American publicist, Francis Neilson, declared that Churchill’s praise of Hitler was the most extreme tribute ever paid by a prominent Englishman to the head of a foreign state....” This was from an Article by Barnes. I found it on google by entering Churchill praises Hitler. Barnes was a professor of Sociology who gained noteriety as an historical “revisionist” who claimed FDR knew that Japan was going to hit Pearl Harbor.


28 posted on 12/15/2011 9:58:49 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Colofornian; SkyDancer

One of the great ‘faith promoting rumors’ of Mormonism is that Mormons were killed by Nazi’s. In fact, the opposite is true. Long after most Christians began to fight the Nazis the Mormons worked hand in hand with them with many leaders even in the SS.


29 posted on 12/15/2011 10:00:11 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: Logical me
This bears repeating.

"Helmuth Hubener, who died a martyr at 17, tortured and beheaded in 1942 for belonging to an anti-Nazi group and publishing anti-Nazi leaflets. Hubener, who is the subject of a Gunter Grass novel, was first repulsed by Nazism as a boy when he witnessed anti-Semitism in his local ward. Hubener was quickly excommunicated by local authorities.

Mark my words, american patriots. The day will surely come when LDS "prophets" tell mormons to disarm and submit to tyranny, and they will. Then they will turn in those they know did not disarm. Do not trust them.

30 posted on 12/15/2011 10:05:17 AM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: Wallace T.; Colofornian

There were Mormons complicit in supporting the Nazis. However, they were a very small minority in a German nation

- - - - - -
Ah, but it wasn’t a SMALL MINORITY of Mormons who supported Hitler. The professor who introduced me to Mormonism (and baptized me LDS as well), served a mission in Germany just after WWII. He proudly relayed how the Nazi supporters were the easiest to convert to Mormonism, because it was a ‘white’ religion and the idea of Indians becoming ‘white and delight-some’ appealed to them. According to him, and a couple of his missionary companions that I met, the former Nazi’s saw in Mormonism a spiritual version of Hitler’s policies.


31 posted on 12/15/2011 10:05:17 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: SkyDancer; Jack Hydrazine
"People seventy years from now will wonder how the world was enamored over Obama."

Yesterday our representatives passed a bill that our president will sign that authorizes the "disappearing" of US citizens.

No tyrant in the history of the world, not Hitler, not Tito, not Polt Pot, not Stalin or Mao did anything worse than "disappearing" people.

32 posted on 12/15/2011 10:16:12 AM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: SENTINEL
I'm thinking of Hitler's "Nacht und Nebel" - night and fog decree where people just disappeared into the night and fog never to be heard from again. It was a specific punishment for opponents of the Nazis in occupied countries and intended to intimidate local populations into submission by denying families and friends of the missing all knowledge of what had happened to them. To this day, it is not known how many people were seized as a result of this order.

How close is this to what Obama's regime wants to do in the USA, and, the media is totally silent on this. Imagine what the outcry from those liberal media types such as Chris Matthews would be screaming.

33 posted on 12/15/2011 10:25:59 AM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: SENTINEL

Try Pinochet.
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/pinochet.html
“The military form a four-man junta headed by Pinochet and composed of the commanders-in-chief of the army, navy, air force and police and embark on a campaign to remove the influence of the UP from all social institutions.

A state of siege is declared, martial law is introduced and parliament is closed. The media is censored, universities are purged, books are burned, Marxist political parties are outlawed and union activities are banned. Thousands are murdered or “disappeared”. Thousands more are jailed or forced to leave the country. Torture is commonplace. Up to one million will flee into self-imposed exile.

It is reported that up to 250,000 people are detained in the first months following the coup. Stadiums, military bases and naval vessels have to be used as short-term prisons. At least five new prison camps are established for political prisoners.”

How about the East German Stasi?
http://eastgermany.info/stasi.htm
“The house or apartment of those who were suspected of anti-state activities were searched while the suspect was away. If someone was seriously suspected of anti-state behaviour, agents would usually appear at their place of work and disappear, perhaps for years . The Stasi was directly linked to the KGB and sent it information until 1990. There had been an estimated 85,000 full time Stasi agents and 109,000 private informers and an estimated 1 to 2 million east Germans had served as Stasi agents at one time or another .The Stasi left behind a staggering 2 trillion pages of reports . Most were hand written, as the Stasi distrusted computers . The colloquial name for the Stasi was Zur Firma (The Firm).”

Remember that the Soviet Union’s security apparatus would abduct their own citizens and have them committed to a psychiatric gulag or a slave labor camp with many dying during their “reeducation” or “rehabilitation.”

Hitler made any one who disagreed with him disappear into the forced labor camps. Six million Jews were murdedered but another six million non-Jews were, also, because they opposed him or were undesirable in some other way.

Tyrants will either quietly make people disappear or use more obvious forms to crush dissent and disagreement. What we see with Obama and the rest in the District of Criminals is bringing back the old ways.


34 posted on 12/15/2011 10:41:22 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: SENTINEL

Stalin is quoted as saying,

“No man, no problem.”

The Soviet Union made to disappear (murder) about 65 million of its citizens during its reign of terror. China is at least another 65 million.

It’s more common than you think or realize. After they disappear a citizen they just edit them out of photos, video, government files, etc.


35 posted on 12/15/2011 10:53:42 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Colofornian

I have been told that Mormons deny the holocaust..

any truth in this ???


36 posted on 12/15/2011 11:14:55 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Jack Hydrazine; All
I highly recommend this book for anyone wanting further information on this topic.


37 posted on 12/15/2011 11:15:52 AM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: Tennessee Nana
"I have been told that Mormons deny the holocaust.. any truth in this ???"

I have never heard nor seen this....but I'm sure FLDS/LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young would have had an opinion if he had been around that long.

38 posted on 12/15/2011 11:27:32 AM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: Jack Hydrazine; reaganaut; SkyDancer; Colofornian; Tennessee Nana
Folks....This one actually makes me really sad....I had no idea how bad Young truly was until now.

"I would rather undertake to convert five thousand Lamanites [native Americans], than to convert one of those poor miserable creatures [Jews] whose fathers killed the savior... Yes, I would rather undertake to convert the devil himself, if it were possible... I would say, leave them, and come home, the Lord does not require you to stay there, for they must suffer and be damned... [L]eave them to live and die in their sins and ignorance... [T]hey take pleasure in their wickedness..." (FLDS/LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 143, 1854)

39 posted on 12/15/2011 11:33:45 AM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: SENTINEL

I’ll add that to my wish list. Thanks!


40 posted on 12/15/2011 1:36:52 PM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Tennessee Nana

I haven’t see anything like that.


41 posted on 12/15/2011 2:47:41 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Colofornian

I used to wonder how could a Hitler happen; the older I get the more I understand. The desire to escape from freedom into the security of slavery is almost endemic to humans, being the rule more than the exception.

What inspires me now are the outliers such as Hubener, about whom I had not heard until this article:

>>>Hubener’s final words to the judges who sentenced him to die, “Wait. Your turn will come.”

I intend to find out more about him.


42 posted on 12/15/2011 3:02:51 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
And we know how racism had been wiped out in all other faiths by 1933, so this is clearly an outrageous abberation by this apostate religion of mormonism.

Chuck, I never can understand the origin re: some of your jaded comments you make at times...like this one.

What do I mean in this particular case?

Well, let's compare a few timelines between 1933 and say, oh, I don't know, let's try 1994...

Working backward...

(#1) South Africa held on to racist Apartheid as official policy into 1994...
(#2) The heyday of OPEN race-based conflict was when the U.S. Civil Rights Movement brought out into the world's limelight what had been there all along...events such as Selma, AL (1965), The March on DC (1963), the way the first black student at the University of Mississippi was treated (1962-1963)...when students would intentionally bounce basketballs above James Meredith's room @ all hours of the night...or students in the cafeteria would get up from his table if he sat down there...and then also the Montgomery Bus Boycott (1955-1956).
(#3) Then we come to this article's particular focus: Racism vs. Jews (1933).

Now let's say it was 1993-1994...
...And you saw a letter to the editor from somebody in South Alabama critiquing open racism in South Africa.
Tell us, Chuck, would you try to rain on that parade? Would you get on your high horse and write a letter to the editor addressed to that person, saying: "Boy, you've got the nerve. 'And we know how racism had been wiped out in' the U.S. by the early 1960s, 'so this' [Apartheid] 'is clearly an outrageous abberation by' freedom lovers like you"?????

Would you? Would you attempt to negate real concerns and real expressions about apartheid racism in the 1990s by attempting to import another culture (U.S.) from a recent time frame (up through at least 1960s)...?

Thus...
...(a) implying that any U.S. citizen complaining about racist policies in South Africa had zero ground to complain -- given that the complaints were coming less than 30 years after open racist behavior in the U.S...
...(b) and even worse, Chuck, such a similar parallel comment would almost come across as someone either defending apartheid -- or at least trying to take the edge off of critiquing it.

See, Chuck? That's what you've attempted to do: You've upchucked upon 1933 racism by implicating & importing racism from (at least) the 1960s...via your use of sarcasm.

And likewise to my parallel example, it comes across as you either defending that 1933 expression of Mormon racism -- or, at the very least -- attempting to take the edge off of its critique!

And I contend that somebody speaking seriously about apartheid racism in the early 1990s could face similar CharlesWayneCT sarcasm re: a similar +-30-year extension approach.

I guess a good chunk of U.S. citizens held no right to complain about apartheid, then, eh Chuck? (Especially if they lived in the South). Is that your 'takeaway' lesson lecture for the day?

I mean, it's either that, or you actually are defending what the Mormons said about Jews in 1933 Germany!

43 posted on 12/15/2011 4:17:06 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Logical me
Bull Crap.

Quite logical...

44 posted on 12/15/2011 5:43:33 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: SkyDancer
Again, you have to look at the environment at the time.

Yup; TIMING is EVERYTHING!!!





"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.



Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'



August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)



1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."



We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.



Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).



When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."



When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)





Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

 

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

 

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

 



 

45 posted on 12/15/2011 5:45:06 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dfwgator
I can say unequivocally that was NOT Churchill....Churchill was the lone voice in the wilderness, as early as 1934, warning a war-weary Britain of the threat of Hitler.

Nazis then; Muzzies now: What's the big deal??


 

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, believe Mohammed’s son was to be their next leader. Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




46 posted on 12/15/2011 5:48:06 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Seriously, again, history is a fun topic and the author should study it some to understand context.

Ain't it though!!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

47 posted on 12/15/2011 5:49:39 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
And we know how racism had been wiped out in all other faiths by 1933, so this is clearly an outrageous abberation by this apostate religion of mormonism.

HMMMmmm...

48 posted on 12/15/2011 5:50:28 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: reaganaut
...the idea of Indians becoming ‘white and delight-some’ appealed to them.

HMMmmm...

49 posted on 12/15/2011 5:51:47 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: SENTINEL
Yesterday our representatives passed a bill that our president will sign that authorizes the "disappearing" of US citizens.

No tyrant in the history of the world, not Hitler, not Tito, not Polt Pot, not Stalin or Mao did anything worse than "disappearing" people.

Oh??

We Americans are SO sophisticated that we make 'em disappear before they are born. At the rate of about 1,000,000+ per year.

50 posted on 12/15/2011 5:54:02 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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