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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Thank you for addressing my question. Now, let's look at the passage you reference.

Acts 19 is an enormously important bit of scripture because it unlocks WHY baptism is a commandment.

This part of God's Word makes it clear that 'immersion' is much more than getting wet.

There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

Getting dunked by John was not enough to receive the indwelling presence of God's Holy Spirit. Prior to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Holy Spirit did not dwell within men. We see plenty of examples of the Holy Spirit being given to people, mostly prophets, in the Old Testament but it was not a regular occurrence.

Hebrews 11, the great chapter listing the heroes of faith under the Old Covenant ends this way:

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

None of these heroes of faith had received what had been promised. What was promised? God living right inside us. That's what differentiates the Christian age from the time before. Because God sacrificed part of Himself for our sins, He puts a part of Himself into us to 'seal' us for resurrection. Submitting to baptism (which a shocking number of believers will not do) is declaring our desire to be joined to Him symbolically in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Acts 19 makes it clear, if you are willing to see, that by doing so God then seals us with His Holy Spirit.

Ruy, I do understand that the getting wet part is not the deeper meaning.

These 12 men were re-baptized because they had no understanding of, or contact with, the Holy Spirit. That is the power here, not getting wet.

Luke 3:

15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Christ. 16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

This re-baptism in the name of the LORD Jesus was to receive the Holy Spirit. We can see that in the post crucifixion era, baptism was still done with water (Acts 8, Ethiopian official) and here in Acts 19, the implication is that the ordinary use of 'baptism' meant they were dunked in water as well. The difference between John's baptism and the post-crucifixion baptism was that God seals us with the Holy Spirit!

I must ask you, brother Ruy, has God sealed you for resurrection? I hope you have His Spirit indwelling you.

185 posted on 12/18/2011 7:50:34 AM PST by JOAT
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To: JOAT

***“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” ****

Well, St Paul must have recognized them as believers. the question of salvation never entered into the question, only the question of the Holy Spirit.

By re-identifying them with Jesus by baptism he then confired the Holy Spirit on them.

Baptism did not remit their sin as sin had already been remitted by JOHN. And JOHN required proof of a change in their life before he would baptize. This is why the Pharisees and Sadducees refused to be baptized by him.

But then we have a problem.

When Cornelius was converted by Peter, the Holy Spirit fell on them before they were baptized.

Look at the exact point when the Spirit filled them.

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Then Peter asks if anyone could forbid baptism for these people who already showed the signs of salvation and the filling of the Holy Spirit.

So, was Cornelius saved when he believed and was filled with the Holy Spirit, or later when he got wet?


186 posted on 12/18/2011 1:53:36 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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