Posted on 12/23/2011 8:28:19 PM PST by bibletruth
Was the thief in Luke 23 heaven (paradise) bound or purgatory bound?
Luke 23:41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
It’s a nice idea with no scriptural support that I’ve ever seen, that Christians have a second chance after death.
As I mentioned, your concept of Purgatory has clear roots in the Hebrew Sheol and appears to me to have been a survival of it. But, looking at every scriptural reference to the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as well as the New Testament scriptures referencing spiritual matters pertaining to the circumstance of believers as well as nonbelievers after physical death, it is clear that such a place no longer exists for Christians and most likely ceased to apply at all after Jesus Christ freed the righteous dead from Paradise, which was Old Testament as you mentioned.
Everything changed with the Resurrection. There is no longer any need to wait in a waiting place. Waiting for what? Not our Savior, He is risen. Purification, by fire is the belief, correct me if I’m mistaken, based upon one passage of scripture, the interpretation of which flies in the face of the rest of New Testament scripture, in order to support Purgatory.
I was actually disappointed that I'll have to go through the whole process again.
But there is the whole context appropriate thing that you are fundamentally missing.
And if Willie Nelson can figure it out, most idiots should be able to.
It's Christmas.
Everything in it's time. Time to sow, time to reap... even the old preacher understood that.
/johnny
sola scriptura is a nice idea with no scriptural support either.
Good night.
“But they mnust be pure before they enter heaven.”
????? We aren’t pure and we cannot become pure but through Grace (ie, Christ). How does Purgatory change that?
Your post confuses me. Help?
Scripture alone doesn’t support itself? Nonsensical.
Well that was an easy one, there’s no such thing as “purgatory.” Men are not allowed to make up things and if it ain’t in the Bible it ain’t nothing to worry about. Next question?
I never said he was. But that is the standard date that Christians celebrate His birth on.
You seem angry for an envoy of Christ.
/johnny
Purgatory is not biblical, if you ask me (based on my studies of the bible.)
Wrong... I am not angry... I am only pointing out truth from the Bible to appreciate the salvation we have in Christ Jesus who saves us from hell by coming to this world first as a child to grow in God’s grace and for the purpose of offering Himself as a Redeemer. He was born in order to be that Redeemer, that is why I find the birth of Christ Jesus a precious mercy, because He come to save us as a Redeemer. That is the greater purpose for His birth.
No need for vague hints about “censored” books, just lay it out for us, gghd.
Cite chapter and verse in support of Purgatory. I for one would appreciate seeing it, even if I don’t accept it.
Got issues.
I laid, bleeding out on a mountian in a blizzard, and said to myself: "I'm alone"
And I got answered right back that no, I wasn't alone, Jesus was with me, had been with me, will be with me forever.
And then it was just the slog to get through the painful parts.
It's a celebration of the guy that verified my salvation on the side of the mountain, during a blizzard. With great special effects, I suppose, if it didn't hurt so badly. The whole sky clearing/moon rising thing was pretty, but I did pass out from blood loss about halfway through it.
Washed. Literally. In blood.
Come play on my mountain, and we'll talk. Docs gutted me like a fish.
Jesus and me... we are good.
/johnny
Romans 8:34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Romans 8:35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I rebuke you.
/johnny
You stir up false witness against a faithful believer-saint, the Apostle Paul admonishes you.
Your comment about the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus intrigued me. I learn by asking questions, and I have a few to ask you.
There was a great chasm between the two sides described, and Abraham was on the “good side.” Why? The rich man was told he was on the “bad side” because he enjoyed the good things in life - wasn’t Abraham one of the richest men on earth when he was alive? With what crimes did Jesus charge the rich man? What evil had he committed? What good things did Lazarus do to command that we imitate him? I am reminded of David’s comment that “I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. (Psa 37:25 KJV).
Furthermore, these dead guys had fingers, tongues, etc.?
The suffering on the “bad side” was audibly and visually apparent to those on the “good side?”
Again, I see nothing in what we are told of Lazarus that makes me want to emulate him. Also, I see nothing mentioned that condemns the rich man. I don’t think that being rich is a crime, do you? Apparently he allowed the beggar, Lazarus, to enjoy some of the “crumbs” from his table - otherwise why did Lazarus arrange to be dropped off there every day?
When Jesus talked about the rich and the poor, he wasn’t talking about money. I believe He was talking about those who were rich in power and prestige versus the common people.
Do you believe that Jesus could have been using a figure of speech called satire here? Remember who His audience consisted of - His most hated enemies, the Pharisees et al. I believe He was taking their teachings, carrying them out to all their logical conclusions, and then throwing everything back in their faces. Holding a doctrine or teaching up to ridicule is what I call satire, and this is what I believe Jesus was using here. What do you think?
Or my personal revelation?
Take it to the Lord in Prayer.
I stand, redeemed in blood. Regardless of what you like. I was there. Every hateful moment of it. I was there.
How about focusing on the BIRTH of Christ. Since that's where we are in the year.
/johnny
Colossians 1:12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Colossians 1:13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 1:14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
In Colossians 1:14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins - we have is PAST TENSE not future tense. We who have faith in Christ Jesus have PAST TENSE redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins - THIS IS UN-conditional. This make is impossible to be a conditional salvation, sorry, you need to read the Bible more carefully.
Finally, some one who agrees with me regarding the arbitrary placing of the comma. Since there was no punctuation in the Greek, we get to place the comma wherever we want.
Btw, do you believe there were three crucified or five? Could it have been two thieves, Jesus, and two malefactors, making a total of five with Jesus in the middle?
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