Posted on 01/29/2012 7:19:24 PM PST by bibletruth
That’s a favorite saying of mine,but I’m guessing you mean it in a different context.
You can’t be good,no matter how hard you try? What about all the honest people of this world? Hmm? The ones who are honest and pure-of-heart? The ones who help those in need?
One “bad” crosses out all the good? Really? People make mistakes. People make bad choices but that does not necessarily mean they are terrible.
I thought we wee made in G-d’s image. Why would He create humans who are low-down,dishonest,good-for-nothing cretins?
This is the Total Depravity theology,isn’t it?
Thank G-d I’m a Jew because if this is what Christianity teaches then I want no part of it.
http://biblestudysite.com/realsin.htm
Checked this site, and it is utterly unreliable.
How can one tell? The source, KJV (Old Testament in English is very acceptable to eminent Jewish scholars); and the lexical tools Strong's "Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible" and Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary are acceptable, but his method of interpretation (hermeneutics) is not.
Why not? A previous commenter mentioned knowledge of "hermeneutics" helps in making an evaluation, but at the moment did not have time to respond directly. Let me attempt to do a little of that. The identification of its methodical and repetitious errors is rather simple from spiritual discernment. The author(s) of this material do not render the Scripture in its plain sense, so they wind up with nonsense. And you have been suckered by it because you haven't yet reached a Biblical maturity that would have raised a spiritual Klaxon (not an attack on you, just a clear admonition).
What's wrong with their interpretations? Well, first look at what a proper method really is, to get a benchmark. According to Webster. "Hermeneutics is the art or science of interpretation; especially applied to the Scriptures; exegesis." The author(s) of that site get into false doctrine by abandoning universal laws of human language. Instead of bringing out the plain sense of a passage the meaning that is there (= exegesis), they read into a passage a meaning that is not there (= eisegesis). And this is repeatedly done. What the Bible says about this is "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isa 8:20) They do not speak according to the method of giving the plain sense of what is being communicated, as was done in the context of this passage.
Here are the rules as to how to prevent problems:
o Normal interpretation is basic. People write what they mean to say, lest it be taken in the wrong way. Problems arise when the interpreter reads something into the passage which is not there. Then communication becomes impossible.
o Literal interpretation is normal; and contains both literal language (x.: This baby is cute!), and figurative-literal language (This baby is an angel!).
o Figurative and/or allegorical interpretation is not normal. (The authors in your link use this illegitimate trick to deceive you.)
o There is only ONE (1) primary interpretation. God wants us to understand His word. Scripture has but one meaning, one primary interpretation to which all context lends itself. It applies directly to those addressed at some specific time indicated, and must have a specific meaning to them. The meaning can be applied to the reader(s) under similar conditions if/when they exist relative to those prevailing in the context. (Ex. 15:26 only applied to the Israelites at that time. It does not apply to us now.)
o Every statement of Scripture has only one sense. (Ex.: Is. 53:5 "... and with his stripes we are healed." compare 1 Pe. 2:24 "... by whose stripes ye were healed." Isaiah writing to pre-Exilic Hebrews vs. Peter writing to Hebrews in the Diaspora --). When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. These passages make sense when they are interpreted literally using literal and figurative-literal language. NOT a figurative/allegorical interpretation.
*******
The above on hermeneutics is pretty much cribbed from "Here's How! The Bible Can Make Sense to You Today!" by Dr. Fred Wittman, my discipler. This is an excellent paperback for the beginner in finding Bible truths. (Note: Most purveyors adverise their weakest points: "Smoke Kools -- they satisfy." Why does one then want more? "Sears Weatherbeater Paint." Oh yeah? Have you seen the weather side of my house? So, be very careful about any site or blog that claims "Bible Truths.")
Now, tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was a single plant, a literal tree which was the focus upon which God's test of obedience and love for Him fell upon Adam's freedom to choose. It was not Satan, for angels are spirit beings and have no material substance. They have no DNA and cannot produce offspring with or from an herb or carnal form.
"And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. " Heb 1:7
"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, ..." (Heb. 2:16-17a).
Satan had no DNA, he was not a tree, trees do not beget offspring with a human, Cain and Able were not twins (that's a deliberate bend), etc. etc.
Now the bottom line is that today, in the Age of Grace, the Covenant of the New Birth, without spiritual regeneration and spiritual discernment, a human is utterly incapable of understanding the deep things of The Spirit of The God, nor is he qualified to interpret the Holy Scripture without twisting it. (1 Cor 2:6-16, esp. v. 10 & 13-14). Furthermore, if reborn but not having been discipled to spiritual maturity, not having overcome the wicked one, he is not fit for exegetical authority. (2 Pe. 3:15-18; noting that "unlearned" is a little more accurate as "undiscipled").
Enough. Ye have need that one teach you which be the first principles of the oracles of The God. Find a discipler and be discipled to maturity. Grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
So long ---
The point is noone can be as good as God. Only God is sinless and compared to Him, we fall very, very short no matter how hard we try.
Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”
Isaiah 64:6-7 “All of us have become like one who is unclean,and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and have given us over to our sins.”
1 Samuel 2:2 “There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.”
Isaiah 53:6 “All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the sins of us all.”
Yet another shining example of Christianity’s ripping-off of the Hebrew Scriptures to fit its theology.
Original sin passed on by means of continual production of new individuals having Adam's flesh and blood = every one. By man came death. There is none good but The God. One is a Jew when circumcised in the heart. Are you circumcised in the heart? Open to both men and women. Kind of spiritual brit milah. Covenant. No goin' back. Isaiah 53. Need to help others while we're just passin' through, though. Part 2 of the Law -- feels good, too.
One “bad” crosses out all the good? Really? People make mistakes. People make bad choices but that does not necessarily mean they are terrible.
Yep, yep, and yep -- for Heaven, that is. Not terrible by your and my standards, but by The God's. Hates sin. Kind of like HIV/AIDS (which He also hates) only more so. People seem to have to sin like they have to breathe or laugh - it's part of the package. Need to agree with Him, "repent" -- turn around 180 degrees in the mind, trust Him. Like Job, Abraham, Itzaak, Ribkah, Yakov, Moshe, David, Schmuel, Yeremiah, BarTimaeus, Samaritan woman, etc.
I thought we wee made in G-d’s image. Why would He create humans who are low-down,dishonest,good-for-nothing cretins?
Adam was. Eve was. They chose to sin and because of that, Sin infected every cell of their bodies -- they caused it, passed it on, despite warnings from The God. They made the choice, The God did not. Now we're stuck with it. Non-negotiable. God did not create the descendants of Adam and Eve. All the descendants became children of Satan at conception. Fact. We are simply the product of multiplication/recombination/propagation of sin-infected cells. It's unavoidably inherited. Like death. The God is so holy and pure that he can not abide the least eentsy iota or keraia (yodh or chireq) of sin. He is also The Judge and The Executor. The sentence for sin is 3 kinds of death. Physical death. Spiritual death. Eternal death. The only way out is to be born anew as a spiritual person. Reward? physical life, spiritual life, Absolute Eternal Life with man's soul & spirit forever in affectionate union with The God, The Eternal Father.
This is the Total Depravity theology,isn’t it?
Yup. That's the status at birth. But no sin imputed until accountability under the Law (love The God, love thy neighbor) cuts in. Kids get a free pass, at first, for a while. Maybe about Bar/Bat Mitzvah too late.
Thank G-d I’m a Jew because if this is what Christianity teaches then I want no part of it.
Time was, when if you wanted to talk with God, you had to find someone who spoke Hebrew. No more. First People of the Way were all Jews, but they reached out -- regular fire sale of passes to goyim. He loved them too. But Jews got first dibs.
The God is not only immensely Holy and Just, He is Love and Tender Care personified hugely; and from before The Creation, had it all figured out. Made Himself Fully Man, Fully Divine, became your blood/burned sacrifice (and mine), completely satisfied The God's righteous demands on the humans regarding Sin and sins, once and for all time, and obtained The God's offer of friendship for each human acknowledging Him as King of all Kings. Satan wants to blind us to that. Better check it out. (Yom Kippur still going on in Heaven for a little while yet. The Eternal High Priest still praying for us, every moment.)
There's more, lots more. God loves you. So do I. Baruch haShem!
I don’t believe that G-d became man or that I need anyone other than G-d for my salvation.
Believe it or not,I used to be a Christian.
I can’t accept anything that goes against Torah,including Total Depravity,Original Sin or a permanent hell.
I’m not a child of Satan,either. In fact,Satan is not the individual you think he is. “Satan” means “prosecutor” and he does what G-d tells him. He has no powers or authority,only G-d’s “green light”. He does nothing without G-d’s OK.
Like I said,I’m glad I left Christianity. Being a child of Satan (evil) is preposterous and anti-Biblical. Being responsible for the sins of those in the past is absurd and anti-Biblical. Burning in an eternal hell-fire is anti-Biblical.
It seems to me that Christianity is built on fear.
It'll be interesting to see how this works out for ya.
Believe it or not,I used to be a Christian.
You either are or you weren't, seems like
I can’t accept anything that goes against Torah,including Total Depravity,Original Sin or a permanent hell.
Your current status is -- sinner? ah, --lily-white? How much nerve gas has to be in the punchbowl before it's unacceptable?
I’m not a child of Satan,either. In fact,Satan is not the individual you think he is. “Satan” means “prosecutor” and he does what G-d tells him. He has no powers or authority,only G-d’s “green light”. He does nothing without G-d’s OK.
Well, here's what Jesus said to the Jews which were contradicting him:
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." (John 8:42-45)
What do you make of that? Were those Jews children of Satan the Adversary?
Like I said,I’m glad I left Christianity. Being a child of Satan (evil) is preposterous and anti-Biblical.
See the above -- oh, wait! That's why! You don't like how the New Testament reveals the hidden things of the Old Testament, the Tanach!
Being responsible for the sins of those in the past is absurd and anti-Biblical.
Of course! The God never said you would be! But you will suffer the effects of past sins and contemporary sins of others -- like -- death. And the Bible says you are responsible for your own -- the first of which receives a death sentence (Ezekiel 18:1-30). Always has, from the first human error.
Burning in an eternal hell-fire is anti-Biblical. Sure.
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." (Deut. 32:22)
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."Rev, 20:15
It seems to me that Christianity is built on fear.
Example: "Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways." (Ps. 128:1) I think a lot of these are scattered throughout the Tanach. Let's see -- for "fear": 416 instances in OT, 114 in NT; for "love" 260 instances in OT, 214 in NT. Doesn't allow me to agree with you. What form of "Christianity" did you reject as fear-based?? (You don't need to respond. I think I'm done with this.)
I feel like responding anyway.
1) I am not a sinner because I reject J-sus.
2) Any sins I commit are my fault and are not due to the “Fall of Man”.
3) G-d is the only one who can save. No one else.
4) The Christian translation of the Hebrew Scriptures is incorrect and they have nothing to do with a pagan man-god.
I’m guessing you are saved because you are a Christian,and I’m doomed because I refuse to worship J-sus,a pagan man-god who may not have even existed?
Yeah,Christianity IS based on fear. It’s all about being damned to hell if you aren’t Christian,and instilling the fear of hell in others.
The Jews are not the children of Satan. That’s more anti-Semitic garbage. It just happens to be in your part of the bible.
You're calling every innocent newborn baby a "child of Satan".
That's 100% crazy.
I remember Coral Ridge Ministries from years back (lived just south of the county line for a while)
many blessing
Yep. Not its fault — comes from its Ma’s and Pa’s genetics — back to the original human pair that introduced Sin into the world, and passed it on to their progeny. Sort of like some kind of universal sickle-cell anemia — that came from disobeying their Creator. Have 19 grandchildren, many of whom have been spiritually reborn and became children of The God! What a great joy!
*****
Eph 2:2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
DNC.2012, I notice you don't point to any scripture for your assertions, and you can't because there are none. Your attempt to legalistically focus on each word instead of the obvious intent say a lot.
Anyone who knows anything about the Bible knows that bibletruth was saying that no one has to "perform any good work" to be saved - we can't be perfect and we can never be good enough, so Christ came, out of love for us, to save the world from that condition. Once we accept Christ, we are to do many things - not to earn, deserve or keep our salvation, but because we are saved.
Too bad you missed the whole point and had to be so devisive - unless, of course, you are not on our side, in which case, it's too bad you don't know Christ.
You need not perform any good work - nothing!
That is horrible advice and equally horrible theology.
Telling people that good works don't matter has horrible consequences, and effectively hollows out all of the substance from any professed good beliefs.
Every baby is innocent. That includes pre-born babies and born babies. They are not stained in any measure by the misdeeds of those who walked the Earth before them.
OK. I don;t have much time
1) I am not a sinner because I reject J-sus.
You are, even without rejecting Jesus, just like me and every one else born under the curse. The only question is: Are you a sinner because you sin, or do you sin because you are a sinner?
"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (Is. 53:3)(prophecy of the Messiah who has been here once as the obedient suffering servant of The God, and Who is scheduled to return to this world as The Absolute King and Ruler of Heaven and Earth.)(The law of double reference in prophecy)
2) Any sins I commit are my fault and are not due to the “Fall of Man”.
See the above conundrum
3) G-d is the only one who can save. No one else.
Yep. He does all the saving and I do all my sinning. But He makes the rules about who He saves and how He does the saving. The purpose of the Bible is to teach His Plan of Redemption. You seem to have thrown away the most important part of the plan.
4) The Christian translation of the Hebrew Scriptures is incorrect and they have nothing to do with a pagan man-god.
Wrong. Eminent Jewish scholars have a high regard for the scholarly work of the KJV's translation of the Masoretic text into English, including the Deuterocanonical books. They see it as the preferred literal equivalency with majestic flow and style. Most particularly it distinguishes correct gender and number in translation of syntax
I’m guessing you are saved because you are a Christian,and I’m doomed because I refuse to worship J-sus,a pagan man-god who may not have even existed?
So, what do you want me to say? Whatever you think now, when He returns you WILL fall to your knees and you WILL confess that He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Yeah,Christianity IS based on fear. It’s all about being damned to hell if you aren’t Christian,and instilling the fear of hell in others.
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Prov. 1:7) Fear is good. The fear of the Lord is dreading to displease or disobey Him. That is a wise thing to consider, and all mature Jewish and People of The Way share that regard in our love for The LORD. I'm not afraid of Hades or the Lake of Fire because I am giving that trip a miss. What I fear is that someone else may not recognize the precarious situation the are in in rejecting The God's plan of redemption. I never want to fail in my assigned task of giving them enough data to make a choice.
"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;..." (2 Cor. 5:11) My brother's keeper, loving my neighbor in spite of how he reacts.
The Jews are not the children of Satan. That’s more anti-Semitic garbage. It just happens to be in your part of the bible.
Whether Jewish or Gentile, all humans only have two options: One can be a bondslave of Christ, or one can be a bondslave of Satan. There is no in-between. Babies are born in Satan's kingdom, and are predetermined to start out as slaves to the god of this world. They start out trying to get their parents to serve them. Some really get this to work. A wise parent will not submit, but will do their job of training the child, in getting its antisocial and manipulating tendencies under control from the get-go. Wish I'd had better early training in obedience and awareness of others.
The Theme of the Bible, from the first page to the last, is The God's Progressive Revelation of the Coming of The Messiach, The Glorious King, and His Kingdom of Righteousness and Peace. It's like having a real treasure map. The X-marks-the-spot is in the part describing the Covenant of The God which is now in effect. You seem to have thrown away the half of the map that shows where the treasure is.
Great questions! love to hit a slow pitch outta the park!
'S OK, jda -- sets one up for a clarifying Scriptural response. Just hope I don't overdo it and offend beyond reason. I'm not here to win a debate by logical fallacy defaults. Just here to contend for The Faith. Thanks for your patience.
Nice links — I checked them out. Registered for the Dean Bible Ministries download. Interesting study on the reassertion of literal interpretation and dispensational emergence. A good contribution
I have no problem with contending for the faith. However, Biblical concepts like loving your neighbor like yourself, respect, displaying a servant’s heart, maintaining the unity of the Spirit, not being divisive, etc. always seem to get overlooked in the process.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.