Joseph Smith Death Mask Shows How MORmON GOLD PLATES story is false

You Tube.com ^ | Jan. 30, 2012 | Hockeybuss

[Colofornian]

For those that keep claiming that Mormons are not being attacked here, just take a look at the format of the thread title, paying attention to the uppercase letters.

Pray tell, T.P...tell us...what's so offensive about this You tube poster typing the word MORMoN???

[Elsie]

For those that keep claiming that Mormons are not being attacked here, just take a look at the format of the thread title, paying attention to the uppercase letters.

Ah... one of my favorite non-MORMONs, who; for SOME reason; cannot seem to REMEMBER to differenciate between MORMONs (THE PEOPLE) and MormonISM the hellish theology.

[Colofornian]

I think this post belongs to that species known as “personal attack.”

(Well, Sitetest, you just fell into Elz' trap...'cause if you're accusin' Elz of a "personal attack," what does that likewise make Jesus "guilty" of when Jesus said that to Satan speaking through Peter???)

By extension, Sitetest, you might be attacking Jesus...I'd hate for you to have to answer to Jesus for that when you encounter Him face-to-face.

[Elsie]

You HATEful APOSTATE!

You KNOW that you can find MORON inside of MORMON!!!

--MormonDude(Wait... did that come out right?)

[Colofornian]

...we are told to speak the truth in love.

Agreed. The New Testament is quite clear on that. (Of course, I don't think I've EVER seen the quoters of Paul on this also cite Paul's counterbalance verse on this -- 1 Cor. 13:6: "Love rejoices in the truth." ... IOW...true love doesn't avoid telling the truth and be "enablers" to people on pathways embracing things other than the grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ...Otherwise, Paul wouldn't have offered to trade place in hell with his fellow Jews, as he did in Romans 9:1-3)

I vent here and speak respectfully to others.

Indeed. Kudos.

But what I usually find from commentators like Mindbender -- and perhaps you as well (I don't know enough about you...or even Mindbender, for that matter)...is that some Christians have a great degree of difficulty separating critiques of worldviews vs. critiques against the person.

For example, if I critique homosexuality -- in a manner that still shows the homosexual is of great value to God -- then I am NOT guilty of "disrespecting" the homosexual just because I speak negatively of homosexuality.

The reverse of that is also true: A homosexual can speak negatively of Christianity -- without assigning "baggage" that they are necessarily speaking against the Christian.

Now obviously, somebody CAN do both: They can attack Christianity and the Christians to whom they are talking...just like homosexuals can be attacked along with homosexuality.

But too many church members have little discernment in even making such a distinction...and they wind up making these things interchangeable.

[To Mindbender] You are correct no matter what many here are saying. But I suspect yo know this already.

Well...what I've noted about this post, Mindbender's post, and Protect the bill of rights' post...is that you're all pretty vague in commenting what was really problematic about specific posts in this thread. (Bill of rights mentioned something about "anti-Christ" without us being able to find such a reference; and you, vp, are "amening" Mindbender's vague reference to "attacks" that aren't very specific)

(I hope none of you discipline your own kids that way...ground them for doin' "something" wrong...but don't ever 'xplain what was exactly problematic...didn't your parents ever teach any of you NOT to be generic in your critiques?...or is it that you're not really objecting to anything specific...you just want to attack posters in general???)

[caww]

If you look under the “Spirit” entry in LDS church-published Bible Dictionary, 1979 (p. 776) — in back of Holy Bible, you’ll find this entry:

“That is, ALL forms of living things—man, beast and vegetation—existed as individual spirits, before any form of life existed upon the earth.”

Oh for crying out loud! This just melts with New Age mumbo jumbo nonsense. How dense can people be! Only someone who has been completely “brainwashed” to the point he has lost the ability for critical thinking could swallow this junk.

[Colofornian]

That's ok; as SATAN has very thick skin. BTW; he thanks you for defending him.

ROTFL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[Normandy]

This is a weak — nonexistent — argument against the the Book of Mormon. It doesn’t follow that if someone made a replica of Joseph Smith’s face, that Joseph Smith should have made a replica (brass rubbing) of the plates.

The maker of this video may not have been aware that Joseph was under strict command not to show the plates to anyone, except for witnesses under certain conditions.

If you need proof of the book of Mormon, that proof has been supplied by God. In the front of each copy of the Book of Mormon you can read the testimony of three witnesses who saw the plates, saw the angel, and heard the voice of God commanding them to bear record of what they had witnessed.

On a separate occasion Joseph Smith showed the plates to eight other witnesses who also recorded their testimony.

Both accounts can be read here:
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng

[Colofornian]

The maker of this video may not have been aware that Joseph was under strict command not to show the plates to anyone, except for witnesses under certain conditions.

If you make a copy of something -- and keep it private for as long as you live -- as instructed...that's not going against such instructions.

As for your claims of the "3 witnesses," Godzilla's done a great job in other threads dissecting such Lds claims. (Perhaps he can jump in)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"On a separate occasion Joseph Smith showed the plates to eight other witnesses who also recorded their testimony."

NO. Normandy, no one ever saw the plates. Ever. Some were allowed to "heft" them inside a bag. No one ever physically saw them.

No "Witness" Saw the Plates

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Significant details & problems that most LDS are not aware of.

The following two essays provide a very good analysis of the arguments against the witnesses by critics. Note: these essays are very similar with many common elements. Please do not skip reading the following essays as the information presented below is for the most part, in addition to what's presented in those two essays.

http://www.irr.org/mit/bom-wit-pt1.html

http://www.exmormon.org/file9.htm

Here are a few key points from the essays listed above.

1. The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature. There are many statements given by the witnesses that indicate they only saw the angel and the plates in a visionary experience. Why would people need to see real, physical plates in a vision or a real angel that was physically on the earth? There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock.
2. The witnesses did not all see the plates or angel at the same time. Only David Whitmer and perhaps Oliver Cowdery saw the angel together. Martin Harris removed himself from the group and did not see the angel until perhaps three days later (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71). There are conflicting accounts regarding the 8 witnesses. At least one account has the plates seen in two groups of four, not all eight together, as popularized in church paintings. Why is this significant? Any magician will tell you that it is easier to deceive people in smaller groups.
3. David Whitmer said "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." So which statement was David Whitmer lying about or had been mistaken about? Either way he doesn't sound like a completely trustworthy witness. Note: LDS apologist rebuttal to this issue here and a critic's response here.
4. All the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family. Some like Martin Harris had a substantial financial investment in the success of the Book of Mormon.
5. These men lived in the early 1800s and believed in magical things like many people did during that time period such as divining rods, second sight, magic, dreams, seer stones, etc. Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context.
6. Many of the witnesses ended up leaving the church and following other leaders and religions such as James Strang, the Shakers, Methodists, etc. By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the LDS Church.
7. Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet, the church changed its doctrines in error and changed revelations against God's will.
8. The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself.
9. The "testimony of the witnesses" is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books etc. in those days to help spur sales. And of course, the BOM's producers originally intended to sell copies for $1.75 each.
10. All three witnesses believed that God Himself had told them (through Joseph Smith) that they had been specially chosen to testify to the world that they had seen the angel and the plates –– if they had enough faith. Martin Harris was even told the exact words he must use: Joseph Smith said he had a revelation in which the Lord commanded Harris to say, “I have seen the things which the Lord hath shown unto Joseph Smith Jun., and I know of a surety that they are true, for I have seen them.” And just to clinch the command, God threatened Martin Harris, saying, “But if he deny this he will break the covenant which he has before covenanted with me, and behold, he is condemned.” A personal promise (and a threat of condemnation) coming directly from God is bound to have a powerful influence on a person’s thinking!

    Click here to read more

[Colofornian]

“That is, ALL forms of living things—man, beast and vegetation—existed as individual spirits, before any form of life existed upon the earth.” (CAWW, citing my previous citation from back of Mormon Bible)

Oh for crying out loud! This just melts with New Age mumbo jumbo nonsense. How dense can people be! Only someone who has been completely “brainwashed” to the point he has lost the ability for critical thinking could swallow this junk. (CAWW)

Imagine this: Will the 'rebellion' fostered by JimRob & others quell GOP voters in FL (& elsewhere) from making a huge mistake in putting Mitt Romney as THE LEADER of the free world?

Or...will the GOP actually put in a position as THE LEADER of the free world somebody who actually believes the Mormon evolutionary-like, animistic-like, New Age-like tenet that beasts and vegetation were part of a "spirit-pool" world somewhere -- mingled with us as "fellow spirits" of "them?"

Imagine that.

Btw...the "correct" "progression" then...in case you wanted to know the "all-out" evolutionary "track" Mormons say that the gods, people, beasts & vegetation have taken is...

Is...
...we ALL (the gods, too) started off as "spirits" & "intelligences" & "elements" (source: Official mormon "scripture" -- Doctrine & Covenants 93:29, 33)
...then, a god has some of these "spirits" as "spirit kids" born to a mom-god or goddesses near Kolob... (Official Mormon doctrine of the pre-existence...referenced once in a vague way in the Book of Abraham, ...an Egyptian funeral doc "translated" by Smith)
...then, some of us were sent to inhabit a body on Planet Earth...So...if Mitt Romney's spirit-birth certificate from near Kolob ever shows up on Planet Earth...he's got "birther" issues galore!
...then, some of us -- like the Mormon "prophet" Moroni...become angels...
...others, if you get the right "paperwork" (get married in a Mormon temple; get a temple recommend issued to you; and keep all of the Mormon rituals, etc.) ... you get to eventually become a god of your own planet.

Now...I'm not sure what planet the Mormon god grew up on via his "evolution," but Joseph Smith assures us a "council of gods" got together and selected him for the "god job."

Hmm...in light of the quote at the top of this post...does this mean that these "vegetation spirits" and these "beast spirits" can become human and gods, too...eventually?

Sounds like grounds for a new movie: Planet of the Mormon Apes!

[T. P. Pole]

In that sense, T.P. has unfairly engaged in assigning motives to me that is not in any way backed up by the evidence.

I now see that you were quoting. Indeed, my claim was unfair. Apology tendered.

[annieokie]

L I'll be!!

Missionary work in Ill. la de da, what were the chances of that? Creepy.

LaFawnduh???

Think that is: The Stupid Fawn, or The Fondue duh?

Anyway, sounds like something I just had to MISS seeing. lol

[svcw]

THX 1138

[caww]

I really want to know at what specific point of the Mormon teaching do they forfeit their common sense and critical thinking?...or are most of it’s members lacking to begin... with even a remote degree of reasoning?

When you consider the number of Mormons..and then Islamics...and all the wacko cults and false religions that people “choose” to adhere to...it’s a wonder God hasn’t thrown in the towel on the whole lot!

[DeerJerkyDave]

This seems to go completely against the golden rule (see Matthew 7:12).

[caww]

The Book of Mormon is bogus....is there some fanciful reason Mormons can’t see that although Joseph Smith lived in the 19th century he choose to write in 17th century English. I mean come on this isn’t rocket science!

[svcw]

Would that be right next to where we are as Christians to call out false prophets?
Joseph Smith was is false prophet, mormonISM is being called out.
If you don’t like it don’t get on the religion forum.