How Not to Become a Catholic

Catholic Exchange ^ | February 16, 2012 | James Tonkowich

[smvoice]

Because I believe you are truthful and honest, I would like to ask you a question. Obviously you read my post 109 carefully. In light of that, I would ask you: where would you place your “we are told by John to confess our sins” in post 109? Think about it. What do you think I would reply to you about your statement? I’m very curious and truly wanting a honest answer. Thanks.

[johngrace]

1John 1

1: 8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

This is the verse I am talking about. Meaning we from our own actions are asking God for forgiveness as Christians. You do see that John puts it as an absolute.

Now from reading your post your are implying that you are covered in this circumstance? If yes very interesting.

So where is John The Apostles letter . You are stating before Paul's Letters? It seems you are implying it is another time? It seems you have time periods before and after Paul's conversion.

But if that is what you are stating just remember what words John uses in the verse:

1JOHN 1:

8"If We CLAIM To Be WITHOUT SIN sin, We DECEIVE ourselves and the TRUTH is Not in Us."

A Good warning from John for all of us.

Freeper Regards!

[smvoice]

Sorry it's taken so long to get back with you, jg. I wanted to be able to have enough time to try to explain not only WHAT I believe, but WHY I believe it, according to God's Word.

So, 1 John. Let me give you the overview of this Book along with Hebrews through Revelation, of which it is part. First, you know that I believe Romans through Philemon is for the Church the Body of Christ. The revelations concerning grace, salvation through faith in the finished work of Christ alone, doctrine for the Church the BOdy of Christ, the beginning of this Body, the building of this Body, and the end of this Body is all included in Paul's epistles. Since the mystery was given to him, then it only makes sense that he has given us, through direct revelations from the risen Christ, the operations manual for this age of grace we are living in. The "But Now" of Ephesians, Chapter 2. All we, the body of Christ, need for our salvation, walk, and future, are found in those epistles. Not only do they explain the "Time Past", they also explain when "But Now" began and when the "But Now" ends, and the "ages to come" begin. It is all about the formation of a BODY of BELIEVERS. A MYSTERY, hid in God from the foundation of the world. Eph. 3.

So what does this have to do with 1 John?

When the Church the Body of Christ is raptured, the tribulation begins. 2nd Thess. explains the rapture, and the revealing of the anti-christ. Where would someone who is not part of the rapture go in the Bible to find their survival information in order to go through the tribulation and endure to the end to be saved?

Hebrews through Revelation. I believe they were written for the future tribulation saints, as their survival guide from God. Notice first of all the first book after Paul's epistles. The Book of Hebrews. It is written to, THE HEBREWS. We know that during the age of grace, the middle wall of partition has been removed and there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in God's eyes. Eph. Chapter 2. We are on equal standing and during this time, "But Now", we are ONE NEW MAN.

The middle wall of partition is back for Hebrews. Just the fact that it is written to THE HEBREWS tells you that. Next comes the Book of James. It is written to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." James 1:1. Obviously it is to the Jews.

Then the Books of Peter. They are written to "the strangers scattered abroad"...and they are about things ready to be revealed IN THE LAST TIME. 1 Pet. 1:5. The APPEARING of Jesus Christ (v.7), hope to the END, at the revelation of Jesus Christ (v.13), tradition from YOUR FATHERS (Jews), Christ foreordained before the foundation of the world, but now manifest IN THESE LAST TIMES FOR YOU (v.20), a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people (Chapter 2:9), having your conversation honest AMONG THE GENTILES (an obvious proof that Peter is speaking to Jews), the end of all things being at hand,(Chap.4:7), etc. etc. They are ALL about the end times, the time is at hand, the eminent return of Christ. 2nd Peter is the same. It is for those saints going through the tribulation and awaiting the 2nd coming of Christ.

Next comes the Books of John. They are the same theme. John speaks of those who have overcome the wicked one, the annointing of the Holy Spirit for the teaching of the truth, remaining in unity with one another, the day of the Lord, and the appearance of the Lord. Jude is the same. Contention for the faith which was once delivered to the saints, enduring, and looking for Christ's appearance. Revelation speaks for itself, obviously.

I gave you this overview of Hebrews through Revelation to show you these are specific for a specific group of people, the tribulation saints, a KINGDOM OF BELIEVERS. Just as Romans through Philemon is specific for a specific group of people, the Church the Body of Christ, A BODY OF BELIEVERS.

During this age of grace, we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. How many of my sins were future when Christ died for them? All of them. He died for ALL my sins. If I have to be in fear that every time I sin, I chance being cut off from God, then what good was Christ's death for me? If there is something I can do to LOSE my salvation, then there MUST be something I can do to WIN my salvation. And we know that is not true.

John's letters are part of the "ages to come", the tribulation, where the middle wall of partition is back up, Jews and Gentiles are differentiated, and the law, although written in their hearts is foremost. We, during this time, are not under the law, but under grace. It will be different during the tribulation. Just as it was different during the OT and Christ's earthly ministry, including Peter and the 11.

I hope I have answered your question. God Bless.

[smvoice]

I want to add one more thing to the previous post: the "last days". Paul speaks of the "last days" and Peter speaks of the "last days". Are they the same or different?

Paul's "last days" speak of APOSTACY. 2 TIm. 4:3,4. Peter's "last days" speak of a great REVIVAL. See Acts Chapter 2 with Joel 2,3. Great revival of WHO? Israel. When all ISRAEL will be saved.

They are obviously not speaking of the same "last days". Paul's are the "last days" of the Church the Body of Christ. Peter's are the "last days" of the tribulation and Christ's return to set up His kingdom.

[johngrace]

Hi Sm-I have to say I understand you better. I thank you for your honesty to this belief. If you were a liar to this belief you never would of explained it in this manner. So I believe your are a fairly honest person in explaining.

I do not understand all of it. But truly is a fascinating way of looking at the bible. I remember years ago you explained some awhile ago it was late night to me. We were messaging.

I will be praying like always for all of us on these threads in these last days. I believe my assurance is in asking Christ and having that answer from asking not just being a christian.

I firmly believe in:

Philippians 4:6-7

"Do not be Anxious about anything, but In Everything, by Prayer and Petition, with Thanksgiving, Present your Requests to God. And The Peace of God, which Transcends all Understanding, will Guard your Hearts and your Minds in Christ Jesus."

I will continually pray for you to make sure you do have that peace for all eternity.

Loving Father, from Your generous hands flows every good and precious gift.

We receive physical, material, relational, and spiritual blessings that far surpass our daily needs.

We acknowledge that You are the one and only true God, the Savior and Redeemer of our soul.

We give You glory for all that we are and all that we hope to be. Be glorified in and through us as we walk in humility and express thanksgiving to You in Jesus’ name we pray.

Praise Jesus!

Amen.

Freeper Regards!

[smvoice]

Everything we have, we know, we believe and we teach is to God's glory and grace. It is sometimes enough to sit still and KNOW He is God, He is in charge, and He is leading us in the way He would have us go. It is all part of His Plan for us and for reconciliation He wants between Himself and man. Through the finished work of Christ He seeks those who put their faith entirely on Christ's finished work in their place. Knowing that God could raise Him from the dead because the penalty for OUR sins were paid in full. 2nd Corinthians, Chapter 5 says everything we need to know in order to even BEGIN to understand His love toward us. In that while we were yet sinners, He died for us. That we may be reconciled to Him. There is no love greater.

God Bless you and may His grace encompass your walk with Him. Maranatha! smvoice

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply.

I had NO IDEA that John Nelson Darby

I doubt that, unless you thought you came up with dispensationalism all on your own.

It's quite a new thing: the notion that Jesus’s ministry and teaching in scripture on eternal life and the Kingdom of Heaven doesn't apply to us.

Not anywhere near what "a follower of Christ" means in Christianity; so it's understandable why it took until a hundred or so years ago for it to even occur to some preacher/teacher.

Who knows if this particular teaching or some offshoot will even last the next hundred, or fifty, or ten?

[bvmtotustuus]

>>You guys can’t seem to separate your spirit from your flesh...It is not our flesh that is saved...Our corrupt flesh will be redeemed at the Resurrection...

When we sin, we sin in the flesh...There is no sin imputed to our spirit/soul...

Do you also seperate Christ’s flesh from His Spirit?

[D-fendr]

So can I beat up some old lady, steal her purse and still go to heaven??? Absolutely..

Any sin? Unrepented murder? Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Any and all sins in the future?

But am I going to do that??? It's not in my immediate plans...

As long as it's not in your immediate plans I guess. :)

But unless you are omniscient, you, and I, do not know what the future brings, what trials we may face and whether we will endure to the end.

Taking credit for enduring is not the same as enduring, presuming forgiveness for the future, not knowing the sin or repentance is not the teaching of Christ or His apostles.

[Bellflower]

How do you post about that? The other things can be discussed or argued about, but we can’t argue about Him.

You discuss what you know and who you are involved with on a daily basis, from experience. The Bible tells us that out of the the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. The Christians I know haven't any problem at all talking about Jesus. We certainly don't need the excuse that He is like air to cover up for the fact that our thoughts are not on Him, but rather a hundred other "religious" topics.

[ottbmare]

We certainly don't need the excuse that He is like air to cover up for the fact that our thoughts are not on Him, but rather a hundred other "religious" topics.

How can you presume to know how much of my thought is devoted to Him? Only He can know that.

[Bellflower]

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, so says the Bible. How can you be thinking and writing about Mary, the Pope, a countless other saints, the Eucharist, Church issues and not hardly write a word about Jesus Christ Himself and think that He is on your mind constantly. You, yourself, more or less, said that you write about many things, but you can hardly write about Him because He is like air. I cannot imagine a relationship with Him whereas I hardly spoke about Him because of the reasons you gave, but rather discussed and filled my mind and heart with countless other "religious" things. If He is on your heart you will be speaking about Him.

If you can honestly say and believe that you are different than what the Bible says, being that what is in your heart is what will come out of your mouth, and that your heart and thoughts are on Him more than anyone or anything else, then so be it. Can you?

[ottbmare]

Please show me posts I have written in which I was "thinking and writing about Mary, the Pope, a countless [sic] other saints, the Eucharist, Church issues and not hardly [sic] write a word about Jesus Christ and think that He is on your mind constantly." I have not done so, (in part because after a lifetime as a Protestant, I am a pretty new Catholic, and I don't feel qualified to do so).

My FRiend, unless the Lord in His bounty has endowed you with ESP, which is very unlikely, you can't read minds. Only God knows what is in the hearts and minds of people, especially people who aren't chatty and extroverted. It would actually be laughable to make that judgement if you knew me well in real life. And you've never met me.

My point was that in these threads about Catholicism, the Lord Himself is not the topic of dispute so there is no need to argue or post about Him. The doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are what is in dispute. That is why you do not see Catholics posting lengthy philosophic disquisitions on the nature of God. You Protestants attack us for our beliefs about other areas of religious observance, not (presumably) about our belief in God the Father, His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. So why would you expect us to begin declaiming about Him, away from the topic of the thread? If we were debating global warming and you suddenly began sneering at me, "You haven't posted anything about how wonderful the sunlight is! Obviously you don't know or care anything about the sun. You're just a climate-change hoaxer!" that would be similarly illogical.

You surely believe that, like everyone, you too are someday going to find yourself standing before Christ and accounting for your life and your sins. It might be wise to visualize that scene. And visualize the Lord in His Majesty saying, "You know how you thought you knew who was a good Christian and who wasn't? Remember how you thought you knew what relationship other people had with Me, and lectured them about their faith? Right. Well, some of those you thought were great believers were deceiving themselves and you, and I have said to them, 'I never knew you.' Some whom you criticized were among My most beloved children. You might have done better to focus on your own relationship with Me instead of assuming you knew how much other people love Me and how well they serve Me. I didn't choose you to be everyone else's judge. I'm the Judge."

Don't set yourself up for that, FRiend. It's very easy to fall into the sin of spiritual pride.

[Bellflower]

You are right and I apologize. I was wrong, getting you mixed up with almost every other Catholic on FR. Are you sure that you really are a Catholic? Were you even brought up as one? To be fair to me, try to realize that my head spins with all of the fantasy of the Catholics around Mary, worshiping bread and wine, bowing down to statues, praying to the dead, following a system of works to be/stay saved etc. It is unbelievable to me.

The fact that Catholics do not seem to comprehend that faith in Christ and His finished work alone is what saves is also very dizzying. It is like trying to reason with people who are spinning quickly down a spiritual drain and trying to grasp their hands to pull them out as they spin away completely confident that as long as they are Catholic they are just fine. I do know that some Catholics are actually saved. Those that really do have their hearts and minds on Christ, trusting Him for their salvation, and not on a million other things and works for salvation. Hopefully you truly are one of them.

I really do not think that you have a proper concept of what judging is. There are two kinds. One kind is when you take pleasure in pointing at others sins so as to feel bigger and better about yourself and the other when you see people lost and convinced otherwise and you hope that they will see that they are swimming in a system where they will drown unless they grab a hold of Christ. To try to help save those that are lost in a system of works, idolatry and fantasy is not judging but rather trying to help people. I am not sure why I did, as I usually try hard not to, but I did misjudge you. Sometimes I do get it wrong and I was wrong about you and what I said, so again, sorry.