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Joni Eareckson Tada on Wilberforce Award, 'Better Off Dead Than Disabled' Mentality
Christian Post ^ | 03/16/2012 | Eryn Sun

Posted on 03/16/2012 9:24:09 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

A disturbing belief is spreading within the hearts of many around the world and within America: that a person is better off dead than disabled.

But a leading advocate for people with disabilities is fighting that notion and looking to educate the world and the church about the precious lives and rights of "those who seem to be weaker."

The Christian Post spoke to Joni Eareckson Tada on Thursday, the founder and CEO of Joni and Friends International Disability Center, about her countless achievements for the disabled community, unwavering faith in God, battle with breast cancer, and her latest recognition by Breakpoint and The Chuck Colson Center for Christian Worldview.

The 62-year-old evangelical author, who became a quadriplegic at the age of 17 due to a diving accident, just recently learned that she would be honored with the prestigious Wilberforce Award – named after the British parliamentarian who fought for 26 years to abolish slavery in Great Britain – during the annual Wilberforce Weekend held at the end of March.

CP: First of all, how do you feel to have gotten this award? Were you surprised, shocked? How did your husband react?

Tada: I was completely stunned by the news that I would be receiving this year's Wilberforce Award. I had actually nominated someone else, and when I received the first notification, I thought the committee had accepted my nominee. Imagine my surprise when I read it and discovered I was the recipient. My husband? He was just plain proud!

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CP: Why do you think they chose you to receive this award?

Tada: For many years I have worked hard to promote a biblical worldview on disability, whether in churches or in the community. I served on the National Council of Disability and helped spearhead the effort to draft the original Americans with Disabilities Act. Most of all, it's been my heart's desire to see the church carry out the mandate from the Gospel of Luke, the 14th chapter where Jesus says to go out and find the disabled and bring them in. My life goal is to see the world's one billion people with disabilities embraced and encouraged by the church.

CP: What do you believe is the greatest achievement you and your organization have accomplished for the disabled?

Tada: I believe we have brought the plight of the world's special needs families before the church, reminding them that "those who seem to be weaker" are actually indispensable. Whether through the 25 U.S. family retreats we sponsor, or the thousands of wheelchairs and Bibles we've distributed in developing nations, our passion is to make certain these disabled people and their families find a place in the fellowship of the church.

CP: What do you believe is the foremost important problem right now facing the disabled and how is your foundation working to fight and overcome this?

Tada: There is a growing premise in this country and around the world that a person really is "better off dead than disabled." This premise reflects a fundamental fear that people have about disability and, unfortunately, it has influenced social policy, such as the legalization of physician-assisted suicide and the destruction of human embryos for stem cell research. Just this week a couple in Oregon were awarded $2.9 million because doctors did not diagnose their unborn child with Down syndrome. When we disregard the rights of the weakest and most vulnerable among us, then the rights of all of us are in jeopardy.

CP: How is your health right now? I know you were battling breast cancer. Have the treatments finished? Are you now in remission?

Tada: My health is great! It's been nearly 20 months since my battle against Stage 3 breast cancer and I have a little under four more years to go before I can be declared cancer free. As long as I take my daily medication, I feel I'm on the right and best track!

CP: With another obstacle to overcome, how do you continue to look to God for strength and reason that everything that He has planned for your life is for His glory and for your good?

Tada: My weakness, that is, my quadriplegia, is my greatest asset because it forces me into the arms of Christ every single morning when I get up. As long as I come to God with my need, I am promised more than enough grace to help me smile, not in spite of my disability but because of it. And that's good!

CP: Is there any words of advice you would like to give those who continue to fight injustice throughout the world?

Tada: The Bible is replete with commands to persevere, especially in the face of injustice. The God of the Bible also heartily commends those who strive for mercy and justice in this world. God is truly on the side of those who work for social justice, especially when we accompany that work with the giving of the Gospel!

Joni Eareckson Tada is the senior associate for Disability Concerns for the Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization and has authored nearly 50 books on disability and Christianity including her best-selling autobiography Joni.

For more than 30 years, she has worked to accelerate Christian ministry in the disability community through her wide array of life-affirming ministries begun by her organization including Wheels for the World, Christian Institute on Disability, the International Disability Center, Family Retreats, and her television and radio programs geared toward encouraging people with biblical insights.

She and her husband Ken Tada are currently traveling around the Bay area, speaking at different venues to energize and inform people about their disability ministry.

To learn more about Joni and Friends International Disability Center and keep updated on their status, click here.



TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: cultureofdeath; deathpanels; disability; disabled; euthanasia; joni; jonieareckson; joniearecksontada; moralabsolutes; prolife; wilberforceaward
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JONI ERICKSON TADA




1 posted on 03/16/2012 9:24:17 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

What a blessing she has been to me and many of my church friends! We have completed many studies in which she is either a speaker (on DVD) or has written material for the class. Just think of how many lives she has touched, in spite of her disability! One day her faith will become sight, and she will be able to stand and walk with Jesus! All lives are precious, and we learn so much from each other through our shared lives! He uses unfortunate experiences to bring us closer to Him, and Joni has definitely lived that. Bless her & Praise God!


2 posted on 03/16/2012 9:32:23 AM PDT by sassy steel magnolia (USAF life and Navy wife...God Bless the USA!)
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To: SeekAndFind

I remember when I first encountered Joni’s wonderful art work and then her even more amazing story. Her life, just as it is, is such an inspiration for me. No matter what I want, God knows better. Regardless of what I ask for, God is still in charge and will make sure that I end up exactly where I should.

Wonderful award for a very humble and courageous woman.


3 posted on 03/16/2012 9:45:44 AM PDT by Nifster
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To: SeekAndFind

I have been inspired and influenced by Joni ever since I read her story as a teenager. She has contributed more for God and society than most of us could in 10 lifetimes.


4 posted on 03/16/2012 10:17:55 AM PDT by cblue55 (Mr. Obama, was your mother punished with a baby?)
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To: boatbums; caww; smvoice; CynicalBear; reaganaut

Ping.....


5 posted on 03/16/2012 5:18:10 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: cblue55

Amen!


6 posted on 03/16/2012 5:20:44 PM PDT by rabidralph
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To: SeekAndFind
Just such people were the first victims of the Nazis. They were called "useless eaters" and it was argued, not by the Nazis but by some within the German medical community, they would be better off dead. The Nazis created the legal atmosphere which made the killings possible.

Beware, America. The Culture of Death surrounds us and know this for a fact: God is not mocked.

7 posted on 03/16/2012 5:28:22 PM PDT by Robwin
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To: metmom; boatbums; caww; smvoice; reaganaut

Thanks for the ping. What an inspiration Joni has been to so many people. Some will say “in spite of her disability”. I say it’s because of her disability. I wonder where the “healing” crowd is in this thread?


8 posted on 03/16/2012 5:34:28 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Kandy Atz; CynicalBear

Hey, Kandy! Why hasn’t God ‘healed’ Joni? Do you think she doesn’t have enough faith?

(expecting crickets)


9 posted on 03/16/2012 5:40:39 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: CynicalBear

She is an inspiration, I read her biography (autobiography?) when I was a teenager before I was even a Christian. She always gave me the courage to deal with my disabilities.


10 posted on 03/16/2012 5:42:26 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: SeekAndFind; 185JHP; 230FMJ; AKA Elena; APatientMan; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
[ Add keyword moral absolutes to flag FR articles to this ping list ]


11 posted on 03/16/2012 5:45:03 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: reaganaut

Not sure why you are targeting me with your unbelief. My opinion is meaningless. Only the Word matters. If you choose to believe that God has not provided healing in redemption, that is your unfortunate choice. The Word is quite clear on this subject whether you believe or not.

I still don’t understand why people are looking for reasons NOT to believe God’s Word, or to prove that He does NOT heal. That seems a bit troubling. How would you receive any promise of God if you are mired in such unbelief and doubt?

Praise the LORD, my soul, and forget not all his benefits—who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion, who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s. Psalm 103:2-5 NIV

Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:4-5 NIV

“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 1 Peter 2:24 NIV

Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them. Matthew 4:23-24 NIV

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Hebrews 13:8 NIV

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. John 14:12 NIV

He said, “If you listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.” Exodus 15:26 NIV

There are hundreds of similar promises, types, figures, shadows of God’s will for your health. Exodus 12, Deuteronomy 28, 30:19-20, Joshua 21:45, 1 Kings 8:56, Psalm 34:19, 91, 107:19-21, 118:17, Isaiah 40:28-31, Jeremiah 30:17, Nahum 1:9, Malachi 4:2, Proverbs 4:20-24

It gets more prolific in the NT, and expands under an even better covenant after Pentecost: John 10:10, Galatians 3, Romans 8, Colossians 1, 2, 1 John 3:8, Revelation 12:11, Matthew 8:2-3, 8:5-13, 8:16-17, 9:18-29, 9:35, 12:9-13, 22, 14:14, 34-36, 15:30-31, Mar 1:40-42, 5:21-42, 6:53-56, 7:31-37, 8:22-25, Luke 4:16-21, 4:40, 5:15, 17-25, John 4:43-54, 5:1-18, 9:1-41, 11:1-46, Acts 3:1-10, 5:12-16, 8:5-8, 9:32-34, 14:8-10, 19:11-12, 28:8-9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, James 5:14-16, 2 Peter 1:2-4, 1 John 5:14-15, 3 John 2, Galatians 3:5,

By no means is that a complete list. If you study all the verses above, it would be impossible to conclude that it is NOT God’s will for the Body of Christ to be made whole.

It does not matter what you think, your experience, doctrine, tradition or dogma. All that matters is what God says on the subject.

Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. Romans 3:4

For nothing is impossible with God. Luke 1:37

Then the LORD said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.” Jeremiah 1:12

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? Numbers 23:19

You never answered my question from an earlier thread. Is God a liar? Answer that, and you will begin to answer the deeper questions that you have.

Frankly, your post seems inappropriate on this thread. So, I would suggest you examine the motivation behind it.


12 posted on 03/16/2012 7:23:05 PM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: CynicalBear

I recently read Joni’s comments when she went with others, as herself, to a Healing revival early on in her plight. They all loaded up there wheel-chairs and off they went to have the opportunity of being healed at this revival.

However, once there the ushers and helpers lined them all up in their wheelchairs.... basically “outside” the arena....telling them that they didn’t want the crowds to tumble over them as someone might get hurt.

So there they set....hardly able to even hear the people on stage....and nobody came to them thorughout the surface. It was then Joni realized the “hosts” of this event were not interested in crippled wheel chair patients....and was hurt that all these other people with her were lined up as they were as if outcasts from the happenings.

She realized these false teachers had no intentions of healing anyone where it could “show” an actual healing.

Imagine being crippled and sitting in your wheel chair hopeing for something profound to occur...only to out outside the event....All those people hoping but left out!


13 posted on 03/16/2012 7:44:58 PM PDT by caww
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To: sassy steel magnolia
I met this wonderful lady well over thirty years ago when she was appearing at a Billy Graham Crusade in Tampa. I was waitressing at the hotel where she stayed and got to speak to her for several minutes. I still remember her poise, warmth and genuineness and she made a big impact on me. When people wonder why God lets "bad things happen to good people", Joni is one of the shining examples of God's grace working all things together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to HIS purposes (Romans 8:38).
14 posted on 03/16/2012 8:00:12 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Kandy Atz

The scriptures you used about Jesus taking our pain etc....was of sin and it’s consequences....he was bruised and sticken for OUR SINS, which we deserved....he bore our grief and sorrow as well...

When I see these faith healers going up and down children’s cancer wards and healing these kids.....or veteran’s hospitals....and cancer treatment centers.....then we’ll talk.

Jesus healed people in His day 100%...there were no re-trys as is done today.....further HE healed many without them asking...and those who had no faith whatsoever.

To say you must have “enough” faith is “works”......If God wants to heal he does so regardless ....our souls were redeemed....our bodies continue to bare the sin of the old nature which we also stil have until we are ultimatley with Him. And interesting even the earth otself “growans within itself” for falling under the curse of Adam’s sin.

Aditionally....


15 posted on 03/16/2012 8:06:28 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
Joni realized the “hosts” of this event were not interested in crippled wheel chair patients...She realized these false teachers had no intentions of healing anyone where it could “show” an actual healing.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
--Matthew 24:24

16 posted on 03/16/2012 8:30:33 PM PDT by Albion Wilde ("The facts of life are Tory." -- Margaret Thatcher)
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To: reaganaut; CynicalBear; metmom; caww; smvoice
Why hasn’t God ‘healed’ Joni? Do you think she doesn’t have enough faith?

I remember reading in Joni's book about her views on God before her accident. She admitted that she was not a strong Christian and, at first, she was devastated that such a horrendous thing could have happened to her. But as she grew in her acceptance of the condition of her body and her faith grew because of what had happened - and this is a very important part since a "normal" human reaction would have been to curse God and hate him for "doing" this to them - she stopped asking, "Why me?" and started saying, "Why not me?".

She also spoke about where she would have been in her spiritual life had God NOT allowed this trial in her life. It is in finally grasping that critical point, that all who suffer in this life as Christians realize the GIFT God has given to them. They, we, understand that God does have a purpose and plan for us and that our suffering IS part of his wondrous plan - a plan that has eternity in view.

There are many out there who refuse to accept God might actually want to allow affliction to stay. They have been convinced that the "healing" God said that Christ's suffering brought us is physical in nature when it is obvious that it cannot be that. The atonement gave us spiritual healing - our SOULS have been healed - and at the resurrection, our bodies will also experience a total and complete healing from all sickness, suffering AND death because we will be given glorified bodies like unto Christ's glorified body. Our corrupted and mortal flesh will put on in-corruption and immortality and we WILL live for eternity with our Savior. The atonement enables us to live for eternity in Heaven with God - that is the healing Christ's suffering bought for us.

Some like to quote God's promises to the Israelites when he brought them out of Egypt and into the Promised Land and promised them a life without diseases and a land flowing with milk and honey. And he most certainly had the power to do so but, because of their disobedience and grumbling distrust, the majority never saw that in their lives. What God promised to Israel at that time is NOT a promise he repeats to anyone else. Sure Scripture says God's promises are without repentance and God is no respecter of persons, but they forget that there were conditions placed on the people of Israel and, had they obeyed God, he WOULD have fulfilled his promises to them. Therefore, the promises of "no diseases" and "land flowing with milk and honey" were definite promises to specific people under specific conditions. We are not the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt, so the promises to them do not apply to us. Now, obviously, some other promises DO apply to us today, but as far as a guarantee that God WILL heal all OUR diseases, no such thing was ever promised.

That leaves us to understand that although God DOES heal, sometimes God allows suffering and sickness, trials and testings, persecution and, sometimes, martyrdom, and, in order to grasp the meaning behind this, we have the New Testament Scriptures to guide us. We can look at the lives of the Apostles and the early Christians and realize that God had a higher purpose for them and He also does for us today when he allows these things in our lives. No one doubts that God can't heal whoever he chooses to and many people have experienced miracles, but when he chooses NOT to, then we know there is a purpose and we discover an even greater miracle.

Joni is an incredible woman whose strength of faith is amazing but, had she either never been stricken or been healed by a "faith healer" early on, we can only guess about where she would be today. Her victory and her testimony is that she rejoices in what God has allowed her to suffer because it was by that suffering that she has been able to be such an instrument for God's work and because of the relationship she has with the Lord that she KNOWS she could not have had any other way. I do not think she has given up the hope that God could still make her whole, but, if He doesn't, she has the strength through Christ to be the woman God wants her to be exactly as she is. Her life is a powerful testimony to the world of the truth of Christ's love and sacrifice for us and her crown in glory will be filled with the stars of all those she has led to Christ because of her faith. God does not lie, he WILL work all things together for our good, and Joni is living that truth!

17 posted on 03/16/2012 9:01:16 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: CynicalBear; reaganaut; presently no screen name; Quix

Joni paid a price at the hands of the healing crowd if you have read her book.

She was likewise blamed for her disability continuing because of her lack of faith to be healed.


18 posted on 03/16/2012 9:46:06 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: boatbums; reaganaut; CynicalBear; caww; smvoice; Kandy Atz
I’ve been thinking a lot about a lot of this healing stuff and what the whole problem is with the healing and signs and wonders movement, and it occurs to me what my argument against it is going to be.

When I go in faith for prayer for healing and it doesn’t happen, there are really two options. One is to praise God for the strength to carry on and continue to trust Him anyway, figuring that His grace is sufficient for me and when I am weak, then (in Him) I am strong,

OR....

The charismatic movement way, and that is to try to figure out why I didn’t get the healing. Is it me? Do I not have enough faith? Generational curses? Sin in my life? yada, yada, yada.... Or to blame Satan and try to figure out why he’s attacking me. Are there strongholds in my life? Sin? Generational curses? etc......

Now, it finally occurred to me what the big problem is. My way, of accepting the not being healed, leaves me free to praise God and continue to trust Him in faith. It keeps my eyes ON GOD and I have peace in the situation through trust in Him.

The other way takes my eyes off God and puts them on me or Satan. There’s stress and strife and worry and fear and guess who’s getting all the attention? It sure isn’t God. It’s on me, or even worse yet, Satan.

I’ve decided that anything that gets my attention off God isn’t of Him and does not, and should not, deserve my time and attention.

If the charismatics are correct and healing is part of the atonement, which I really do think that it is, since we are not saved by works, we are not healed by works. We ask in faith and leave the answering of that to God’s sovereignty.

I have not yet realized the fullness of my salvation that I do have in the spiritual reality. I can live with not realizing the fullness of the healing that I also have in the spiritual reality.

I can live in peace with trusting God. I’ve been reading Hebrews 11 lately and twice in there is says that those commended for their faith DID NOT receive the promises but died in faith believing for what they saw afar off but did not yet have. NOT the charismatic name it and claim it way.

I live in faith, believing in and for the spiritual reality which exists and have peace in it while still stuck in this world.

And that’s a lot of what faith is. Believing what exists that we can’t see but know to be true because God told us. When we have what we’re believing for, then it won’t be by faith anymore because we will have it and it will be by sight.

So

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

And yet......

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,....

Hebrews 12:1-3 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

God has used this food intolerance in a mighty way in my life. There's nothing quite like staring your own mortality in the face to cause you to pursue God with your whole heart and soul and mind and get your eyes of the world. This world has no more grip on me and I refuse to obsess with it, even in the realm of getting my own healing. I will give God the glory for the strength to deal with it and lose the *Woe is me* pity parties.

19 posted on 03/16/2012 10:18:12 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: boatbums; reaganaut; CynicalBear; caww; smvoice; Kandy Atz

I forgot to add......

The other problem is the paradoxes of the Christian life. IN CHRIST my salvation is complete, I have everything I need in the heavenlies. Here on earth is another matter. My salvation is not complete only in the sense that I have not yet died. I still have a physical body which will die. I have a sin nature which has been crucified in Christ but is still alive and kicking in reality that I still struggle with.

Jesus said to be of good cheer because He has overcome the world. We can overcome, but we are not guaranteed deliverance from everything we dislike.


20 posted on 03/16/2012 10:24:57 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
You are a very wise woman, metmom!

I Peter 1:6-9
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

21 posted on 03/16/2012 10:33:34 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Kandy Atz; reaganaut
John 5:1-9 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic called Bethesda, which has five roofed colonnades. 3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed. 5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.

It does not record that Jesus healed anyone else who was laying at that pool, but instead approached the man who had no clue who He was.

Likewise the lame beggar whom Peter healed in Acts, had been laid near the entrance of the Temple, as was his custom. There's no reason to not think that Jesus didn't walk right by him many times previously.

Lazarus died before Jesus came on the scene. Matter of fact, He DELIBERATELY delayed coming to Lazarus.

Sure when Jesus healed it was immediate and complete. None of this *delayed* healing stuff. No teaching that you can lose it, that the symptoms are just likes of Satan to deceive you and you should just ignore them and *walk it out* "in faith". When people were healed by Jesus, they KNEW it.

Nor do I see any verse that indicates we are guaranteed healing upon demand or request. That theology is all based on rationalization and extrapolation and cherry picking verses.

22 posted on 03/16/2012 10:35:47 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
The other problem is the paradoxes of the Christian life. IN CHRIST my salvation is complete, I have everything I need in the heavenlies. Here on earth is another matter. My salvation is not complete only in the sense that I have not yet died. I still have a physical body which will die. I have a sin nature which has been crucified in Christ but is still alive and kicking in reality that I still struggle with.

We are told to present our bodies as a "living sacrifice" to God. The only problem with a living sacrifice, though, is that it keeps trying to crawl off the altar. ;o)

23 posted on 03/16/2012 10:37:05 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums

And I DO have that joy.

Thanks for those verses.


24 posted on 03/16/2012 10:38:14 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

May we all walk ever closer to our Risen, Savior Lord.

I repent for any and all personal pique, anger, retaliation, vengeance, unfitting carnal judgment, and/or offence and anything else less than God’s highest toward you and your cohorts.

I forgive all y’all all such. In Jesus’ Name, for Jesus and His Kingdom’s sake.


25 posted on 03/17/2012 3:44:28 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom; agrace
I’ve decided that anything that gets my attention off God isn’t of Him and does not, and should not, deserve my time and attention.

A big, hearty, AMEN to that! The things (including bodies) of this world are passing away, so we are to store up our treasures in heaven. And anything that causes us to focus anywhere but heaven and the One who is enthroned there, is of this world and will pass away. Our peace, the peace that can't be understood, the joy that can't be expressed only comes when we are focused and are resting in Christ Jesus. All else is dung as Paul says.

God is sovereign over all our circumstances. Our choice is to either cry out for help to God to save our souls in whatever circumstance and to have complete joy in them because we have joy in Him, or to be miserable because we don't like what is happening. Simply translated, we are mad at God because he didn't do what we wanted - which is to have him be at our beck and call.

I had strange week. I found out that a small house I inherited that my aunt and uncle had since the 60's was set on fire. It is likely the house will have to just about be gutted and fully renovated. I had a long talk with the tenant who fiance had dumped him that same day. We talked about Job. He didn't understand how I could not be upset my house was deliberatly torched and that he was basically mad at this God of mine. I tried to explain to him that it was just "stuff" and whoever set it had their heart priorities in the wrong place. I found out later, that he is the most likely suspet.

Then just two days later, I was with people at the opposite end. I am highly involved in a new ministry at our church which is a bible study for adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities. A room full of 30+ adults with Down's syndrome, autism, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc, who are FULL of the joy of God and live with their handicaps with joy. A young man with down's syndrome got up at the end and played a guitar and sang a song he wrote about God saving him. The chords were all the same, he sang off tune and nobody could understand what he was saying. Yet, some were singing with him and at the end, they just exploded in applause and praise for God. I am of the understanding that our bible study may be discussed on Joni's show in the future. It would be such a blessings if more churches did this!

My lesson for the week - sin is ugly, ugly, stinky smelly and the guts of the house (our heart) have to be torn out and redone although the outside looks fine. A few small fires ruined the whole house. As does sin. On the other hand, a house that looks broken is no reflection of the beauty that God puts within and a joy that can't be ignored. I myself have body issues and lately, a lot of circumtance issues that, but I will take broken down bodies and minds and circumstances all day if they lead me to a better knowledge of our Lord Christ Jesus in our life. In the end, we CAN truly say that we rejoice in our sufferings, for they produce endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope and we know that hope will not put us to shame because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit! (Rom 5)

26 posted on 03/17/2012 5:53:12 AM PDT by lupie
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To: Albion Wilde

Exactly....and they are coming out the walls today....all to prepare the mind to accept the anti-Christ’s miracles etc. when he comes...and they will....conditioning of the mind works on the uninformed and willingly ignorant.


27 posted on 03/17/2012 6:40:51 AM PDT by caww
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To: boatbums

AMEN! You are SO right! :)


28 posted on 03/17/2012 7:23:04 AM PDT by sassy steel magnolia (USAF life and Navy wife...God Bless the USA!)
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To: lupie
Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Here, in the Greek......

http://biblos.com/romans/12-2.htm

Stong's http://concordances.org/greek/3339.htm

be transformed = metamorphousthe

3339 metamorphóō (from 3326 /metá, "change after being with" and 3445 /morphóō, "changing form in keeping with inner reality") – properly, transformed after being with; transfigured.

http://concordances.org/greek/342.htm renewing = anakainosei = "From anakainoo; renovation -- renewing."

And your account of your house fire is so appropriate for that. The idea that our minds have to be renovated. And when you renovate a house, you gut it completely and leave only the basic structure and replace everything in it with something new. You rip out the old and throw it out.

I'm thinking that if that guy you were talking to is responsible for the fire, your attitude has got to be bringing tremendous conviction on him right now. There's nothing like forgiveness for breaking down any barriers. People can expect and handle anger and retaliation,but forgiveness. There's no defense for that.

29 posted on 03/17/2012 8:11:37 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Quix

Forgiveness unconditionally granted.

And please forgive me for the things which I have said which have made it personal. There were times I reacted in the flesh.


30 posted on 03/17/2012 8:23:27 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

No sweat. I fully and unconditionally forgive you and all your cohorts.

None of us are rid of the flesh, yet.

Sigh.


31 posted on 03/17/2012 8:31:16 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Kandy Atz; reaganaut; boatbums; caww; smvoice; CynicalBear
Psalm 139:13-18 13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! 18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand. I awake, and I am still with you.

Even if some illness or conditions can be blamed on sin, not all can. Some are just a result of the corruption that afflicts our bodies living in a fallen, corrupt world.

But God has made us, His hand formed us. When a baby if born with a condition, God made him that way, for a reason. Like the man born blind when the disciples in typical human wisdom asked who sinned that he was born blind, what was Jesus' answer? Neither. It was for the glory of God to be revealed.

Now, if it's God's perfect will for us to all be healthy and whole, no baby would be born with any birth defect or condition. Each baby would be perfect. In addition, every time anyone asks for healing according to Scriptural mandate, calling the leaders and anointing with oil, then that person WOULD BE HEALED. After all God said it, No?

But reality is, that doesn't happen and while I can accept that and move on and keep my eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of my faith, too many people are too busy obsessing about why it didn't happen, who's to blame, maybe if I just fix this or do that or try hard enough, I can *get* the healing, and take their eyes off Him and put them on themselves, their circumstances, Satan, busy chasing after and working for something that is to be freely given and freely received.

For all your Scripture verses and the number of times that you've been asked, you still haven't addressed why it is that so many people are not healed when they ask for it.

32 posted on 03/17/2012 8:36:11 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Kandy Atz; reaganaut
And like Job, I can say.....

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, I will hope in him; .....

33 posted on 03/17/2012 8:41:34 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: boatbums

Beautiful testimony; thanks and amen!


34 posted on 03/17/2012 9:58:24 AM PDT by Albion Wilde ("The facts of life are Tory." -- Margaret Thatcher)
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To: SeekAndFind

This is one of the best threads ever! A true testament to Joni and her endurance and outreach. God is great!


35 posted on 03/17/2012 10:09:06 AM PDT by Albion Wilde ("The facts of life are Tory." -- Margaret Thatcher)
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To: metmom; Quix
For the 100th time, we can't lack faith as it is a gift - God given. It's the same faith we use in believing we are saved. We can't see our sins being washed away, we simply believe God. What we weren't given was unbelief, that's from us.

"Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

We all have to renew our minds. It is an on going process. Our Spirit has all Truth - It's the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead that is in us.

36 posted on 03/17/2012 10:47:19 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
For the 100th time, we can't lack faith as it is a gift - God given.

You're telling the wrong person. I never told anyone that they didn't have enough faith to be healed, but I have heard others being told that.

Yes, God saves us today. Today is the day of salvation.

Scripture is replete with examples of people who didn't get their prayers answered immediately. And I think that's why God told us that salvation is immediate. When it's a matter of eternal life and death, God will answer immediately. He assures us of that with that verse.

Everything else is subject to His discretion.

His only guarantee is that we would be saved for the asking. He didn't give us that verse as a pattern for expecting ALL prayer to be answered like that.

37 posted on 03/17/2012 11:44:38 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom; Quix
You're telling the wrong person

I was responding to your post.

I never told anyone that they didn't have enough faith

Neither did I. Why would anyone receive those words - surely, they have the Scripture telling them you can have faith and still be in unbelief. I have no idea why this is an issue if one has a bible.

Today is the day of salvation.

What did HE do at the Cross?

Everything else is subject to His discretion.

That's your understanding. How discretionary was he with the lady with the issue of blood?

His only guarantee is that we would be saved for the asking

You don't 'ask' for something that was already doneIt is Finished, you receive it with thanks and gratitude.

38 posted on 03/17/2012 12:26:23 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: metmom

The majority of my post above was direct quotations form God’s Word. It is not my opinion. It is not based on someone’s experience. It does not rely on what some denomination preaches or teaches. It is Truth, sometimes directly from the mouth of God Himself.

The Bible can be a Blessing or a curse. If you read it expecting to prove that God is evil, satan will accommodate you. But if you study it and eagerly consume it like the Bread of Life, there is no limit to what you can receive by faith. As God tells His children - I have put before you life and death, Blessing and cursing, and just so they knew what to choose, He told them to choose LIFE! (Deuteronomy 30:19) You have authority over your life. You have to decide if Jesus is your Lord and Savior. You have to receive every promise by faith. God does not force anything on people.

In your next post you quote Job, seemingly taking this for your own confession - “Though he slay me, I will hope in him.” Why would you have hope in someone that would so casually take life? How could that type of a relationship ever blossom and bear any good fruit without any trust? And besides, Job was talking foolishly, and only the Grace of God prevented Satan from stealing his life. God prospered Job IMMENSELY. Satan complained about that and because God had placed a hedge of protection around Job. This is so very plain in Job 1 & 2, Now what brought that hedge down? Fear, worry and unbelief. (Job 3:25-26, see also Ecclesiastes 10:8) Job brought down the hedge and allowed satan to run roughshod over him and only the mercy of God prevented satan from taking his life. (Job 2:6) Even Job’s wife, sounding like some on here, told him to “renounce God and die.” (Job 2:9) Finally, after a couple chapters of foolish talk, unbelief and ignorance, Job has a brief flash of wisdom in Chapter 6:23-24 - Deliver me from the enemy’s hand... teach me to hold my tongue. And then several more chapters until we get towards the end where God calls all Job’s comforters’ words “folly.” (Job 42:8) His friends take offerings to Job and he prays for them. In 42:10 it is said that the Lord turned the captivity of Job. The obvious question is, who had him captive, since it was obviously not God? We then see Job back in a right relationship being not just restored, but receiving twice what he had before.

Paul tells Timothy that - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) You don’t build a theology off of foolish talk or unbelief. You learn from Job and apply the lessons of his life with the wisdom you learn from the rest of the Word and the Holy Spirit’s guidance so that you can avoid or overcome all satanic attacks. That is exactly what Jesus did in the wilderness. He used the Word to overcome satan’s temptation. This is reinforced in Ephesians where we are to put on (and not remove) the Armor of God that includes: the Breastplate of Righteousness, Belt of Truth, Helmet of Salvation, the Gospel of Peace and the shield of faith to stop ALL the fiery darts of the enemy. The only offensive weapon listed - the Sword, which is the Word of God. (Ephesians 6:10-17)

These threads are oozing with anger, frustrations, unbelief and accusations. It is not exactly an environment that is conducive to really hearing and discussing God’s Word in LOVE. If you continually talk unbelief, fear, doubt etc, you will harvest that in abundance. The church I attended in my youth continually told people to not expect anything. And guess what, most people got nothing but sickness, failure and death. But my parents dug into the Word and started catching a glimpse of all that God has given us. I could share with you some of God’s goodness that I have witnessed, but that will not help you. You need to see it in God’s Word. That is how faith comes. Looking at the faith success or failure of someone else will not build your faith. That is one of the reasons Jesus discouraged people from telling others about the miracles. They needed to believe in Him, not in the miraculous. Wonders would attract the curious, but the Word (Jesus) is the Rock that everything is built on, a sure and secure foundation. (Matthew 7:24-27)

If God is willing to heal EVEN ONE person, He is willing to heal all, because he does not play favorites (Acts 10:34). God has been healing folks since Creation. That is His nature. That continues today to those that reach out in faith. In fact the leper (Matthew 8:1-4, Mark 1:40-45, Luke 5:12-14) asked if Jesus was willing to make him clean. Jesus answered his question and your questions: “I am willing.” That should settle that question in your heart for all of eternity.

People point to birth defects as a sign that God does not heal. Why we are looking at fallen man for signs or proof, when we have God’s WORD? Its a question for another time. Let’s look to the Word to see if we can possibly find God’s will in this matter. There was a man born blind and the disciples asked Jesus, who sinned, the man (in the womb since he was born blind) or his parents? It was a foolish question and one that was not answered completely at this point in Jesus’ ministry. There were three possible answers - the man, the parents, or neither. Neither is exactly what Jesus answered. In fact, the CAUSE did not matter to Jesus. All he cared about was making the man WHOLE. Because Jesus is the light of the world. He came to do ONLY the Father’s will. And he never changes. And the religious leaders had yet another conniption fit over this miracle. (John 9:1-41) I love the man’s confession in front of the religious leaders:

“This is amazing! You claim to know nothing about him, but the fact is, he opened my eyes! It’s well known that God isn’t at the beck and call of sinners, but listens carefully to anyone who lives in reverence and does his will. That someone opened the eyes of a man born blind has never been heard of—ever. If this man didn’t come from God, he wouldn’t be able to do anything.”

Everywhere Jesus encountered faith the Centurion, Nobleman, Jairus, bleeding woman, he healed. But he “marveled at their unbelief” in his hometown and could only heal a few sick folks. (Mark 6:6) Do you want to be commended for having great faith like the Centurion who simply took God at his Word, or have Jesus marvel at your unbelief? Unbelief, fear, doubt, anger will stop your faith. They are the things that undermine your ability to receive from God. Faith is what connects to God and what pleases him. Unbelief stops everything. Rather than quote scriptures, here are some references if you are willing.

Faith – The Key to Miracles
Matthew 9:18-25 – Matthew 9:27-31 – Matthew 15:22-28 – Matthew 21:18-22 – Mark 5:22-43 – Mark 9:17-27 – Mark 11:22-26 – Luke 1:37-38 – Luke 17:5-6 – Luke 17:11-19

Unbelief blocks miracles.
Matthew 13:54-58 – Matthew 17:19-20 – Mark 6:4-6

One of the titles of Jesus is Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). The English definition for peace falls far short of the Jewish word Shalom which means:

Completeness, wholeness, health, peace, welfare, safety, soundness, tranquility, prosperity, perfectness, fullness, rest, harmony, the absence of agitation or discord. One definition I have heard is nothing missing and nothing broken. Is there a better definition of what God brings into the life of a Believer?

Jesus came to give YOU SHALOM. Will you receive it?

John 5 - The man at the pool. It is curious that Jesus asks him if he wants to be well. What a strange question. Could it be possible that people choose to remain sick? I would hope not. Could it be that desire plays a role in healing. Jesus NEVER used idle words.

Look at what the man says. He doesn’t answer directly, but wallows in self pity, frustration and anger, because nobody will help him into the water, where according to legend, he might get healed. Think about this, he has placed his hope for 38 years on a myth!

Jesus spoke just a few words, “Get up! Take your matt and walk.” - But the man is paralyzed! How could he get up? Who was Jesus addressing when he spoke these faith-filled Words?

He at first does not know it was Jesus who spoke healing Words to him and told him to carry his matt. But when he sees Jesus again, Jesus says something curious “Stop sinning, or something worse may happen to you.” The man was crippled for 38 years! What sin could he have been committing? Maybe it was...unbelief? The Bible is silent so that falls into speculation. But we know that without faith it is impossible to please God. (Hebrews 11:6) And whatever is not of faith is a sin. (Romans 14:23)

The man had picked up his matt and WALKED. This was a tremendous miracle that should have brought great glory to God throughout the city. But here comes the religious folks, theologians and unbelieving Pharisees, demanding him not to carry his matt on the Sabbath. When he informs them it was Jesus who healed him and told him to carry his matt, they want to kill Jesus all the more. They have evidence of God in their midst and their reaction is a desire to persecute and kill. Where do you think that desire came from in the religious leaders? The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. (John 10:10) He is also the accuser of the brethren. (Revelation 12:10)

The Bible is silent as to if anyone else around the pool was healed. It is LUDICROUS to build a theology over the assumption that Jesus healed only this one fellow. While it is entirely possible, however incredibly unlikely, we simply do NOT know. Wouldn’t it be better to place your faith on what we DO KNOW from the Word?

Matthew 4:23-24 – Jesus preached the Good News, healed EVERY disease, EVERY weakness and infirmity.

Matthew 12:15 – Great crowds followed Jesus and HE HEALED THEM ALL!

Matthew 14:14 – Jesus had compassion on the multitude and HEALED THEIR SICK.

Matthew 15:30-31 – The DUMB SPOKE, the MAIMED WERE MADE WHOLE, the LAME WALKED and the BLIND COULD SEE.

Mark 1:32-34 – Jesus cured various diseases and drove out demons in Capernaum.

Luke 4:40 – Jesus laid his hands on people sick with various diseases and CURED THEM ALL!

Luke 6:17-19 – People came to hear Jesus teach and HE CURED THEM ALL!

Luke 7:21-22 – Blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised and the poor hear the Good News.

At the end of John, he adds this reassuring statement: the world does not have room for all that could be written about what Jesus has done. (John 21:25) - For reasons only God knows, the Holy Spirit controlled what was and was not recorded in the Gospels. All the writers had to of known about Paul’s writings and were even ministry partners in the case of Luke. But you will find very little with regard to the revelation of redemption in the Gospels. That is all unveiled in the letters to the Church - the Believers. Jesus was ministering to spiritually dead people, many of which lived under the Old Covenant. Believers are living under a new and much better covenant. (Hebrews 8) You can see most of this throughout Paul’s letters.

Sin, sickness and death entered the world when Adam sinned. Jesus came to reverse this process that is why he is referred to as the last Adam. His sacrifice was complete and addressed every need of humanity. I like how John puts it: The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. (1 John 3:8) You can choose to sin after you have accepted Jesus as your Savior and Lord. And you can choose to be sick and without wisdom as well. But that is NOT God’s will or His best for you. I will never covince you of this Truth. That will only come from the Word, the source of all wisdom.

Selected passages from Psalm 119 AMP - a wonderful Psalm on God’s Word. The author, most likely King David, shows the benefits of LEARNING, MEDITATING, TRUSTING, KNOWING and DOING God’s Word.

Let the proud be put to shame, for they dealt perversely with me without a cause; but I will meditate on Your precepts. v. 78
All Your commandments are faithful and sure. [The godless] pursue and persecute me with falsehood; help me [Lord]! v. 86
According to Your steadfast love give life to me; then I will keep the testimony of Your mouth [hearing, receiving, loving, and obeying it]. Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven [stands firm as the heavens]. v. 88-89
Unless Your law had been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction. I will never forget Your precepts, [how can I?] for it is by them You have quickened me (granted me life). v. 92-93
You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies, for [Your words] are ever before me. I have better understanding and deeper insight than all my teachers, because Your testimonies are my meditation. v. 98-99
How sweet are Your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through Your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. v. 103-105
I hate the thoughts of undecided [in religion], double-minded people, but Your law do I love. You are my hiding place and my shield; I hope in Your word. v. 113-114
Your testimonies are wonderful [far exceeding anything conceived by man]; therefore my [penitent] self keeps them [hearing, receiving, loving, and obeying them]. The entrance and unfolding of Your words give light; their unfolding gives understanding (discernment and comprehension) to the simple. v. 129-130
Salvation is far from the wicked, for they seek not nor hunger for Your statutes. v 155
The sum of Your word is truth [the total of the full meaning of all Your individual precepts]; and every one of Your righteous decrees endures forever. v 160
Great peace have they who love Your law; nothing shall offend them or make them stumble. v 165
My lips shall pour forth praise [with thanksgiving and renewed trust] when You teach me Your statutes. My tongue shall sing [praise for the fulfillment] of Your word, for all Your commandments are righteous v 171-172

God’s Word WORKS. IT IS TRUTH. And He is most definitely NOT a liar. Your debate should be with Him, not me. My faith rests on God’s Word, which is His power, not men’s wisdom. (1 Corinthians 2, Hebrews 1)

Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. Romans 3:4

For nothing is impossible with God. Luke 1:37

Then the LORD said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.” Jeremiah 1:12

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? Numbers 23:19


39 posted on 03/17/2012 2:16:44 PM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz; metmom; reaganaut; boatbums; caww; smvoice
Two questions.

Why didn’t people like Joni get healed when they went with faith that they would?

Why are not all Christians without illness or disabilities?

40 posted on 03/17/2012 3:25:49 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Kandy Atz

And certain posts are oozing judgment and condemnation.


41 posted on 03/17/2012 3:53:42 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear; Kandy Atz; reaganaut; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name
Two questions.

Why didn’t people like Joni get healed when they went with faith that they would?

Why are not all Christians without illness or disabilities?

Two questions which have been asked repeatedly and ignored or side stepped repeatedly.

Is there any charismatic who will honestly answer them or is it too revealing and too condemning of them to answer plainly, that they reason all people aren't healed is because of their lack of faith?

Because in all the responses I've read and all the Scripture that's been provided, that is essentially what it boils down to. It's just that there's not one charismatic name it and claim it type who is willing to say straight to your, my, and others' face's out what they say skirting the issue using Scripture. That is that our faith isn't good enough. It's weak, it's inadequate, we aren't doing it right, we have unbelief, etc. Not one of them has the nerve to say it to our faces without hiding behind cherry picking and taking out of context Scripture.

42 posted on 03/17/2012 4:02:37 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear; Kandy Atz; reaganaut; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name

Since when did physical healing become the be all and and all of our walk with Christ?


43 posted on 03/17/2012 4:04:10 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom; Kandy Atz; reaganaut; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name
>> Two questions which have been asked repeatedly and ignored or side stepped repeatedly.<<

Why would they ignore or sidestep them? Do they not believe what they post? They post all those scriptures as proof that any true Christian should be healed of any and all diseases or infirmities. Either they believe it or they don’t. If they believe it why can’t they explain it to the rest of us? If they can’t explain it how can they believe it?

44 posted on 03/17/2012 4:46:45 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; Kandy Atz; reaganaut; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name
Do they not believe what they post? They post all those scriptures as proof that any true Christian should be healed of any and all diseases or infirmities. Either they believe it or they don’t. If they believe it why can’t they explain it to the rest of us? If they can’t explain it how can they believe it?

If they can't explain it, how can they expect US to believe it?

Either that or they don't believe that we are true Christians.

45 posted on 03/17/2012 4:52:16 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom; CynicalBear; boatbums; caww; smvoice

If they can’t explain it, how can they expect US to believe it?

Either that or they don’t believe that we are true Christians.

- - - - -
I’m thinking perhaps the second one.


46 posted on 03/17/2012 4:54:45 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: metmom
Since when did physical healing become the be all and and all of our walk with Christ?

Since the enemy of mens souls knew he could manipulate minds to... "believe".... his counterfeits were the real thing.........even when they were proven failures.

Commonly called 'Bait'........"Has God not said?"...

47 posted on 03/17/2012 5:25:48 PM PDT by caww
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To: reaganaut
Either that or they don’t believe that we are true Christians.

There's a false sense of security many who follow these teachers have, which their leadership encourages...and with that also that the rest of Christendom is missing out.

What they can't discern is there's many reasons that other Christians don't agree and that's because what they teach does not line up with God's word as it's written and intended ...rather... they take Scripture out of context to support what they "want to believe" rather than let scripture show them the truth.

48 posted on 03/17/2012 5:34:42 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww; reaganaut; CynicalBear; boatbums; smvoice
There's a false sense of security many who follow these teachers have,

And that's the danger of looking at signs instead of Christ. I guess it's the mentality that if they have the sign that's supposed to come with salvation (true believers), then they can know that they have the salvation.

But that immediately puts it in the category of not walking in faith.

I've been reading and rereading Hebrews 11 and 12 this week.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

It's the assurance that we have what we don't see. We have Christ. We have eternal life. We are seated with Him in the heavenly places. That is our possession now.

Again, the paradox of Christianity. My salvation is complete in Christ, I AM saved, justified, sanctified, dead, buried, and risen IN Christ, and yet it is not yet completed.

I am not in heaven yet, I am being sanctified, I am dead in Him and find the old nature still kicking. I am righteousness in Him and still see sin in my flesh.

I will only realize the fullness and completeness of my salvation when I die. Then it will be all mine and no longer by faith but by sight.

And you know what? This physical body is not the most important part of me. I've been healed emotionally and spiritually, which is of far more lasting value to me. I'd rather have been sick and be sick and where I am now in my walk with the Lord, than to be healed physically and still be a mess inside.

49 posted on 03/17/2012 6:38:48 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear; reaganaut; boatbums; caww; smvoice
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

They didn't die in unblief, or lack of faith because they didn't receive what they had been promised. They died IN FAITH, STILL believing God.

Their not having what had been promised did NOT indicate a lack of faith on their part.

50 posted on 03/17/2012 7:08:52 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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