Posted on 04/08/2012 6:19:43 PM PDT by Colofornian
There were some interesting comments from the poll yesterday. I won’t say that our poll is representative of Mormons in general, but I do agree with the results. As of the time I wrote this, 75% of people who responded to our poll say that “Mormons have sub-par Easter services”. Why is that?
Last Sunday was Palm Sunday. SteveS noted that there were “0 references to Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem, no shout outs to Palm Sunday festivities celebrating Christ as Lord and Son of God. No hosannas shouted that day. Hardly any references at all to the upcoming Easter holy day.”
Actually, I checked, and the word Easter was never mentioned.
Jared noted a 1994 talk from Dallin Oaks that “In too many of our classes, in too many of our worship services, we are not teaching of Christ and testifying of Christ in the way we should.”
So, I thought it would be interesting to see what Oaks spoke about in Conference. His talk was titled “Sacrifice”, and he does talk about the Atonement and sacrifice of Christ. But the word “Easter” is completely absent, as is “Palm Sunday.” Why? What is it about our leadership that seems to ignore Palm Sunday completely? And why was Easter (just one week away) never mentioned at General Conference? (I checked for the word “Easter” in every talk, and it was NEVER mentioned–I checked the Women’s meeting the week before and it wasn’t mentioned there either.)
I wish Mormons celebrated, rather than simply observed, the Easter holiday. It would be nice to have more of a celebration of Easter; I really like Easter gets the short shrift for celebrations, but I think that Christmas celebrations in our church are lacking as well. Four years ago, I posted the question, Why don’t Mormons celebrate Easter? It is my #2 post this month! I always receive a spike in hits for that post around Easter. If you do a Google search asking “do Mormons celebrate Easter”, my post comes up on the #8 position (In past years, it was as high as #2).
Is this one of those things we do to be a “peculiar people”? Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t celebrate Easter either. Are we trying to be more like them? No, because we love Easter Egg hunts, and candy. Why do we emphasize the wrong aspects of Easter?
Many of us read the Christmas story before Christmas. How many of you read the Easter story before Easter?
According to mormonism - white bread and water. (Or at least that is all that was served at the ward services I went to).
(That didn't stop Lds "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley from going on the Larry King show in the late 1990s and attempting to "police" the definition of "Mormon" -- saying there wasn't such a thing as a "fundamentalist Mormon..." For some reason, we ne'er see the advocates of your position lecture the Mormons for attempting to establish an exclusive definition of the word "Mormon..." Why not?)
And if you think that anyone qualifies as "Christian," then "nice" -- as in a /sarc "nice" -- to know that you think polygamist fundamentalist, child-raping Mormons are "Christian," too, eh?
Of course, if we totally cater to your seeming open-ended anything-goes indicator of what is a "Christian," no wonder people slide down a religious Bahai-like pathway where they run everything together about God and begin to conclude things like:
...a fundamentalist Mormon-is-a-Mormon-is-a-Christian-is-a-Jonestownite-is-a-Branch-Davidian-is-a-Heavens-Gate-ian-is-a-Urantia believer-is a Church Universal & Triumphant-is-a-Wicca-Witch-is-Voodoo practitioner-is-a-New-Ager-is-a-whirling dervish-is-a-Hindu-is-a-Sikh-is-a-Muslim!
You are welcome...it’s an honest comment of my experiences here in Fontana, CA yesterday where we are visiting preparing for one of our duaghter’s wedding in San Diego this evening...but also of my experiences over 42 years in Texas, Utah, Ohio, Other places in California, in Montana,and in Idaho (our home). Not to mention abroad on trips.
Svcw, Jesus Chist is mentioned in every LDS sacrament meeting, which is the main congregational meeting where the sacrament is taken and blessed. The blessing prayers are the same in every Ward, and are all about Jesus Christ, mentioning Him by name and taking the bread and water in remembrance of the sacrifice of His body and blood for our salvation. Happens in every sacrament meeting, followed by mini-sermons given by members who have been called to do so with a week or so preparation.
There are opening songs, a pre-sacrament song (which is always about Christ) and then a closing song.
Most of the talks are Christ centered, but not all...they may be about family life, or morality, or other teachings of Christ or his Apostles.
I have experienced this in Wards all over the country and have myself been in Bishoprics twice, have been priesthood quorum leaders, Sunday school teachers, etc., etc. Believe me, I know that they are actually “LDS” Wards.
Because I was raised as a Southern Baptist until a teenager, and have many relatives who are not LDS whom we visit on occasion and attend their services with them...from Evangelical to Lutheran.
The main service in sacrament meetings, which occurs at the start of the meeting is the sacrament administration itself...the meeting then goes on for another 50 minutes to an hour. That is what I was referring to. And yes, it was great.
(Please let me know of a specific FREEPER poster who's religiously defending colored eggs & rabbits...especially in the religious section of the FR site)
What? Are there no real "issues" for you to be drawn to that you have to create straw men & go after mythical FREEPER defenders of "colored eggs" & "rabbits?" Really, Ravenwolf???
...all of the things that were put on by the church of Constantine in order to get the pagans to join the Christian Church, Christmass, Easter, Halloween. Pagan, pagan, pagan
Let's separate these three out...Halloween -- or All Saints' Day/eve...Easter -- referenced by early church as "Pascha" -- or Passover...and Christmas.
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Let's start with Halloween:
Per this source, http://www.fisheaters.com/customstimeafterpentecost12aa.html there was some recognition of martyrs during the 4th century...but whatever it was, it occurred on May 13...not Oct. 31-Nov. 1. Its conversion into a feast for not just the martyrs, but "ALL the saints" didn't occur til 741...and "All Saints" as its OWN DAY wasn't set aside until 1048!!! [Hmm...your rather convenient whipping boy, Constantine, in your "scholarly" opinion, must have lived across 4-7 centuries, eh?]
Per this same source: "1 November in 844 when Pope Gregory III consecrated a chapel in St. Peter's Basilica to All Saints (so much for the theory that the day was fixed on 1 November because of a bunch of Irish pagans had harvest festivals at that time). All Souls' has its origins in A.D. 1048 when the Bishop of Cluny decreed that the Benedictines of Cluny pray for the souls in Purgatory on this day. The practice spread until Pope Sylvester II recommended it for the entire Latin Church. The Vigil of, or evening before, All Hallows' ("Hallows' Eve," or "Hallowe'en") came, in Irish popular piety, to be a day of remembering the dead who are neither in Purgatory or Heaven, but are damned, and these customs spread to many parts of the world. Thus we have the popular focus of Hallowe'en as the reality of Hell, hence its scary character and focus on evil and how to avoid it, the sad fate of the souls of the damned, etc."
So if you want to blame the bishop of Cluny for whatever he elected to do in setting aside an "All Saints Day" in 1048, go for it...but at least get your historical facts straight before you start blaming Constantine for something done in the 11th century!!!
Also worth mentioning per this source (http://www.halloween-history.org/), "Around 2,000 years ago, the Celts, who lived in what is now the United Kingdom, Ireland, and northern France, had a festival commemorating the end of the year. Their New Year was November 1, and this festival was called Samhain, pronounced sow-en."
Now why is that relavent? Per this source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druidism), obviously the Celtic Druids weren't around when the 11th century church was designating Nov. 1 "all saints day": "Very little is known about the ancient druids. They left no written accounts about themselves and the only evidence is a few descriptions left by Greek, Roman and various scattered authors and artists, also stories created by later medieval Irish writers."
IOW, the Bishop of Cluny apparently designated Nov. 1 "All Saints Day" in 1048 because Pope Gregory III had designated a chapel as "All Saints" chapel on Nov. 1, 844.
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Easter:
In Exodus we find that Passover -- "Pascha" -- is to be celebrated forever: 14 “This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD—a lasting ordinance." (Ex. 12:14)
So, what was the church celebrating well before Constantine came along in the 4th century?
Passover -- or Pascha. Theophilus tells us that the Caesareans were celebrating Passover "the same day" as the Alexandrians (180 A.D.). Commodianus mentioned in 240 A.D. that Pascha was "that blessed day of ours."
From NorthernCrunchyCon, post #20: Pascha and Easter are the same holy day. That’s why Good Friday, Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday are known collectively among liturgical Christian churches as the Paschal Tridiuum. Here’s a brief history on the topic from OrthoWiki: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Pascha
Certainly, by the time of the Apostolic Constitutions (written well before 390, but compiled then), they were saying that "the resurrection of our Lord" shouldn't be celebrated "on any other day than a Sunday."
Whatever you want to call it -- Pascha, "resurrection day" or Easter, the celebration of the blood of the Paschal Lamb & His resurrection were there before pagan linkages can be attached.
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Christmas (and my comments here extend to "Easter" as a title as well)
You claim, Ravenwolf, that "the things that were put on the church were...pagan, pagan, pagan."
Why stop there?
Most of the days of the week are named after various pagan gods. Many of the month names are named after various pagan gods.
That's all been "put on" society and on our daily calendars, have they not been?
Thursday evolved from the Germanic pagan god, Thor? So, tell us, Ravenwolf unless you studiously avoid using the term Thursday -- or Thor's day -- why do you devote such a day to such a pagan, pagan, pagan god?
I mean, don't we worship a jealous God? Is He not provoked by the way you honor and acknowledge and recognize the false god, Thor? (Or does He look the other way and doesn't care?)
I mean, it can't possibly be that you would hypocritically apply your argument to Christmas & Easter yet recognize Thor's day, eh?
Yes? No? You recognize Thor's day, then? If so, my, my, my: How inconsistent, how two-faced, how Pharisaical, how 'teacher-of-the-law' of you, how hypocritical of you, then, Ravenwolf!
As for the rest of the days & months:
* Monday came from Germanic mythology where the "moon god" = Mani.
* Tuesday comes from Norse mythology re: its one-handed god, Tiw. ,br>* Wednesday comes from the Germanic god Wodan.
* Friday comes from the Anglo-Saxon goddess Frige.
* Saturday comes from the Roman god Saturn (Anglo-Saxon rendering was Sæturnesdæg)
* January - Janus, Roman god of the beginning/doorway
* March - Mars, Roman god of war
* April - unknown, potentially Aphrodite, Greek goddess of love
* May - Maia, Greek goddess of fertility
* June - juno, Roman goddess of protection
So...tell us, Ravenwolf...how you've managed to avoid offending or provoking our Jealous God by avoiding days and months and their names that honor and acknowledge these various pagan gods.
We're all interested in knowing what system you came up with steadfastly (and legalistically, if I might add) avoid such a thing.
And if you can't, may I suggest in the future that you put away such accusations of hypocrisy...because you're as inconsistent, then, as all get-out!
Oh...and don't stop with these calendar days & months, either.
If you have EVER acknowledged April Fool's Day in any way (April 1), do you realize that this day may be a relic of the Roman “Cerealia” – held in honor of Ceres (goddess of agriculture).
And do we not get our very word "cereal" from this goddess? I suppose you legalistically refrain from using the word "cereal" -- or even eating of cereal, eh Ravenwolf?
And tell us, Ravenwolf, how you steadfastly refuse to EVER reference a med prescription as "Rx"...given that the "R" in the symbol "Rx" used by Pharmacists for centuries includes the slant across the "R's leg" = the sign of the Roman god, Jupiter, patron of medicine.
My, my, my. Pagan, pagan, pagan. Have you thus inadvertently honored these gods of Cerealia & Jupiter? (Did you eat a bowl of cereal in the past week, month, or year, Ravenwolf?) If so, naughty, naughty, naughty "pagan" of you! [I'm wagging my finger as I type]
Ok, Jeff.
You are at least consistent in your explanation of “ward” activities, usually the refrain is “what I have experienced is ..... and what you have experienced in not the norm”.
I get it.
I am telling you what my experiences have been. There are former mormons on FR who have told you what their experiences are. There are those linking to articles written by former mormons of their experiences at Easter or at Christmas time - all of which you continually seem to discount.
I have been to “ward” meetings, women relief society meetings, high school meetings, college age meetings at Christmas time, on Easter Sunday as well as other none celebratory days and not one word is mentioned of Jesus, not even during the “sacrament”.
If you chose not to beleive me when I relate my experiences, or those of others about their experience with mormonism or the links to many sites dedicated to exposing the experiences of former mormons, there is nothing I can do about it, it is your choice.
Why water?
...where does the Bible say anything about NOT celebrating with colored eggs and rab(b)its?
And those who dwell on the earth {will} rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
This just might be a little bit out of context.
Go and do thou likewise.
Or a war hero.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57382476/should-lying-about-military-medals-be-a-crime/
Q: If you call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?
A: Four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't mean it is one.
MORMONism (Salt Lake City style) think that THEY are the 'name police' for those who wish to call themselves MORMON:
Media Letter26 June 2008 — Salt Lake City (http://newsroom.lds.org/additional-resource/media-letter)*The following is a letter from Elder Lance B. Wickman, General Counsel of the Church to publishers of major newspapers, TV stations and magazines. It was sent out on Tuesday, June 24, 2008.
Recent events have focused the media spotlight on a polygamous sect near San Angelo, Texas, calling itself the “Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.” As you probably know, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has absolutely no affiliation with this polygamous sect. Decades ago, the founders of that sect rejected the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, were excommunicated, and then started their own religion. To the best of our knowledge, no one at the Texas compound has ever been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Unfortunately, however, some of the media coverage of the recent events in Texas has caused members of the public to confuse the doctrines and members of that group and our church. We have received numerous inquiries from confused members of the public who, by listening to less than careful media reports, have come to a grave misunderstanding about our respective doctrines and faith. Based on these media reports many have erroneously concluded that there is some affiliation between the two – or even worse, that they are one and the same.
Over the years, in a careful effort to distinguish itself, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has gone to significant lengths to protect its rights in the name of the church and related matters. Specifically, we have obtained registrations for the name “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” “Mormon,” “Book of Mormon” and related trade and service marks from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and corresponding agencies in a significant number of foreign countries.
We are confident that you are committed to avoiding misleading statements that cause unwarranted confusion and that may disparage or infringe the intellectual property rights discussed above. Accordingly, we respectfully request the following:
- As reflected in the AP Style Guide, we ask that you and your organization refrain from referring to members of that polygamous sect as “fundamentalist Mormons” or “fundamentalist” members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
- We ask that, when reporting about this Texas-based polygamous sect or any other polygamous group, you avoid either explicitly or implicitly any inference that these groups are affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
- On those occasions when it may be necessary in your reporting to refer to the historical practice of plural marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that you make very clear that the Church does not condone the practice of polygamy and that it has been forbidden in the Church for over one hundred years. Moreover, we absolutely condemn arranged or forced “marriages” of underage girls to anyone under any circumstances.
Stated simply, we would like to be known and recognized for whom we are and what we believe, and not be inaccurately associated with beliefs and practices that we condemn in the strongest terms. We would be grateful if you could circulate or copy this letter to your editorial staff and to your legal counsel.
We thank you for your consideration of these important matters.
Sincerely,
Lance B. Wickman
General Counsel
We thank you for your consideration of these important matters.
Sincerely,
Lance B. Wickman
General Counsel
Notice the implied THREAT?
How did it get in there?
I did not see Noah even knowing about it.
Ignoring them is not discounting them.
Why not?
It was served at PASSOVER; wasn't it?
--MormonDude(Besides; wine reminds us of BLOOD and that is ICKY!)
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