Why do Catholics leave, and what can be done about it?

cna ^ | April 19, 2012 | Father Robert Barron

[NYer]

I saw an advance copy of a survey by William J. Byron and Charles Zech, which will appear in the April 30th edition of “America” magazine. 

It was conducted at the request of David O’Connell, the bishop of Trenton, and its focus was very simple:  it endeavored to discover why Catholics have left the church.  No one denies that a rather substantive number of Catholics have taken their leave during the past 20 years, and Byron and Zech wanted to find out why.  They did so in the most direct way possible and asked those who had quit.

The answers they got were, in many ways, predictable.  Lots of people cited the church’s teachings on divorce and re-marriage, gay marriage, contraception, and the ordination of women.  These matters, of course, have been exhaustively discussed in the years following Vatican II, and I’d be willing to bet that anyone, even those vaguely connected to the Church, could rehearse the arguments on both sides of those issues.  But there just isn’t a lot that the church can do about them.  No bishop or pastor could make a policy adjustment and announce that divorced and re-married people can receive communion or that a gay couple can come to the altar to be married or a woman present herself for ordination.

What struck me about the survey, however, was that many of the issues that led people to leave the church are indeed matters that can be addressed.  Many of the respondents commented that they left because of “bad customer relations.”  One woman said that she felt “undervalued by the church” and found “no mentors.”  Many more said that their pastors were “arrogant, distant, aloof, and insensitive,” and still others said that their experiences over the phone with parish staffers were distinctly negative.  Now I fully understand that parish priests and lay ministers are on the front lines and hence are the ones who often have to say “no” when a parishioner asks for something that just can’t be granted.  Sometimes the recipient of that “no” can all too facilely accuse the one who says it as arrogant or indifferent.  Nevertheless, the survey can and should be a wake-up call to church leaders—both clerical and non-clerical—that simple kindness, compassion, and attention go a rather long way.  I distinctly remember the advice that my first pastor—a wonderful and pastorally skillful priest—gave to the parish secretary:  “for many people, you are the first contact they have with the Catholic Church; you exercise, therefore, an indispensable ministry.”  One respondent to the survey observed that whenever he asked a priest about a controversial issue, he “got rules, and not an invitation to sit down and talk.”  Unfair?  Perhaps.  But every priest, even when ultimately he has to say “no,” can do so in the context of a relationship predicated upon love and respect.

A second major concern that can and should be addressed is that of bad preaching.  Again and again, people said that they left the church because homilies were “boring, irrelevant, poorly prepared,” or “delivered in an impenetrable accent.”  Again, speaking as someone who is called upon to give sermons all the time, I realize how terribly difficult it is to preach, how it involves skill in public speaking, attention to the culture, expertise in biblical interpretation, and sensitivity to the needs and interests of an incredibly diverse audience.  That said, homilists can make a great leap forward by being attentive to one fact:  sermons become boring in the measure that they don’t propose something like answers to real questions.   All of the biblical exegesis and oratorical skill in the world will be met with a massive “so what?” if the preacher has not endeavored to correlate the “answers” he provides with the “questions” that beguile the hearts of the people to whom he speaks.  Practically every Gospel involves an encounter between Jesus and a person—Peter, Mary Magdalene, Nicodemus, Zacchaeus, etc.—who is questioning, wondering, suffering, or seeking.  An interesting homily identifies that longing and demonstrates, concretely, how Jesus fulfills it.  When the homily both reminds people how thirsty they are and provides water to quench the thirst, people will listen.

A third eminently correctable problem is one that I will admit I had never thought about before reading this survey.  Many of the respondents commented that, after they left the church, no one from the parish contacted them or reached out to them in any way.  Now again, I can anticipate and fully understand the objections from pastoral people:  many Catholic parishes are huge—upwards of three or four thousand families—and staffs are small.  Yet, just as major corporations, serving millions of people, attend carefully to lost customers, so Catholic parishes should prioritize an outreach to those who have drifted (or stormed) away.  A phone call, a note, an e-mail, a pastoral visit—anything that would say, “We’ve noticed you’re not coming to Mass anymore.  Can we help?  Can you tell us what, if anything, we’ve done wrong?  We’d love to see you back with us.”

The problem of Catholics leaving the church is, obviously, serious and complex, and anyone who would suggest an easy solution is naïve.  However, having listened to a representative sample of those who have left, parishes, priests, and church administrators might take some relatively simple and direct steps that would go a long way toward ameliorating the situation.
 

[Natural Law]

"Sin, even willful sin, does not damn us or cause us to no longer be His children."

All future sins are not reconciled by declaring our Salvation or final judgment would not await any of us. Your interpretation is not substantiated by Scripture or the teachings of the Church from the first Pentecost until today.

Indeed, it is Jesus who saves us, but it is we who damn ourselves. "The root of sin is in the heart of man, in our free will. To the eyes of faith no evil is graver than sin and nothing has worse consequences for sinners themselves, for the Church, and for the whole world. We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him, but we cannot love God if we choose to gravely sin against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves.

All are called to Salvation and sufficient Grace exists for the Salvation of all, yet all are not saved. To gain Salvation we must cooperate with Grace. Failure, in our thoughts and our words, in what we do and what we fail to to to affirm God and cooperate with His Grace is a sin.

Sin is a conscious choice. To choose deliberately, both knowingly it and willingly, something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.

"He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." - 1 John 3:15

[Natural Law]

"Exactly - anyone who has outbursts of anger when reading TRUTH is acting in the flesh."

Let us each look to our own posts to see who is angry and posting in anger and who is not. Some see and emulate an angry Jesus. I see and try to emulate an infinitely loving Jesus.

"You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." - Matthew 5:21-22

[Salvation]

**many of the issues that led people to leave the church are indeed matters that can be addressed. Many of the respondents commented that they left because of “bad customer relations.” **

A good set of ushers/greeters solves this problem. Also Minisitry Fairs are of great importance.

If you see someone you don’t know, introduce yourself!

[Salvation]

Don’t you mean they couldn’t handle the TRIE doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church.

There are many other Catholic Churches — other than the Latin Rite — what you call Rome. Please educate yourself.

[Salvation]

I’m not a bishop, just a poster who is a Catholic. Find a Latin Mass close to you and sit down and talk with the priest about this issue.

I invite you back and I bet he will invite you back also.

Even the Novus Ordo Mass has true translations now. Very conservative and reverent.

[Salvation]

You are still a Catholic and will have to answer for the mortal sins of not attending Mass for 27 years at the moment of your death.

Do you want to rethink this — you have a responsibility to obey the Ten Commandments.

[metmom]

All future sins are not reconciled by declaring our Salvation or final judgment would not await any of us. Your interpretation is not substantiated by Scripture or the teachings of the Church from the first Pentecost until today.

What the *church* has to say is totally irrelevant to what is reality. I believe God and what He told us in Scripture and if someone wants to continue to put themselves in bondage to works and legalism, that by all means is their prerogative, but I'm not going there again. Once was enough for me.

We sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin, as if, if we didn't sin, we'd be OK with God. The reason we can't get into heaven is that we are not pure, we're sinners. Until that is dealt with, by death, the penalty for sin, there is no way to enter.

We are not OK with God because of our sin nature. That nature has been dealt with on the cross. IN CHRIST, anyone who has put their trust in Him has already died and therefore the penalty of that sinful nature has been dealt with. I already have a place in heaven, not just reserved for me, but there now.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 2:19-21 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

2 Corinthians 5:17 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

John 10:25-29 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Anyone who doesn't know if they belong to Jesus most likely doesn't know Him and would or course, be unsure if they are saved. When someone has the Spirit of God living in them, they KNOW it. No one can have God's presence in his spirit and not know it.

We don't have to work to get saved (Ephesians 2) and we don't have to work to stay saved (Galatians 3).

The Catholic church teaches dealing with the sins, not dealing with the sinner. Forgiveness deals with the sins. Regeneration deals with the sinner and gives us fellowship with God again.

[Salvation]

Oops

TRUE doctrine

[johngrace]

What I am getting at is not to be too mild about it. Of course he forgives. But do not make it so casual without profound sadness. You act like it's not much. I have met too many who just do not have a heartfelt contrition.

Just make sure you are truly sorry for the sin as a Christian. My most profound moments with the Lord has been after deep heartfelt contrition. After these moments the most beautiful miracles. He lifts us up like no one else.

Psalm51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart,4 O God, you will not despise.

Romans 2: 4,

"Or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance."

"God resist the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 1 Peter 5:5

Praise Jesus! Amen!

Freeper Cheers

[johngrace]

Sorry forgot to put you in the addressed people spot. I am in a rush. Post 229

Freeper Cheers in Christ!!

[metmom]

Repentance is not sorrow for sin. It's turning from sin.

It's a conscious choice to turn from sin to God. Sorrow may enter into it. I think often regret does more.

But sorrow for sin is not enough. That could simply be being sad because of the mess we're in, not because it's offended God.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

I have conviction of my standing before God because of my faith. I know that I am forgiven and have eternal life now because I believe Him when He tells me that if I confess and repent I will be saved, I AM saved.

The penalty for my sin has been paid and payment has been accepted. A transaction has taken place and I am a new creature in Christ and have been transferred into the kingdom of the Son He loves.

It's no different than the kid whose dad tells him he's going to Disneyland because the father has already got the tickets and promised him that he's going there. It's not presumptuous for the child to tell his friends that he's going as if it were a done deal, because it is. That's called *trust* and faith in his father's promise.

[metmom]

What I am getting at is not to be too mild about it. Of course he forgives. But do not make it so casual without profound sadness. You act like it's not much.

Good grief. I don't know how much stronger I can get without getting slapped down by the RM or criticized by other Catholics for being *unloving* or *unChristlike*.

I'm not mild about it. I never have made it of no account or that it's insignificant.

Nevertheless, ANYONE can have the assurance that if they simply repent and ask, God will forgive them and give them eternal life. It's all based on HIS integrity and faithfulness, not on mine.

If someone thinks that being confident of the promises of God based on His character and integrity is arrogance, then they are the ones with the problem, not me. They can have the same confidence because it's based on God's faithfulness, not mine or yours, or any other human being's.

[presently no screen name]

You can't go by posts but their belief and TRUTH trumps all - and some seek that as being 'smug'. How is that not being jealous, with snide remarks, manipulation with words thinking they can have one agreeing with your tradition.

Some see and emulate an angry Jesus

Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. It's impossible for Jesus to be angry. Only satan would want others to think it's possible. Anyone who confesses JESUS is The Word and The Word alone reigns surely, that's enough for satan to be angst all the time. Because how can he deceive those who believe The Word ALONE reigns, he can't so he tries with with his doctrines of demons and tradition.

If you are implying you are my brother, you aren't - you belong to another family. According to your papa, the self proclaimed infallible one, your brothers are muslims and he said you serve the same god. Kissy, kissy the koran. There is plenty of murder in that one as your mind gravitated towards.

My brother/sister doesn't listen to man but GOD, HIS WORD ALONE reigns. They don't listen to another and turn from them.

Like those pushing their Queen of Heaven - Maryology and humanism.

[bkaycee]

I am Catholic in the universal sense, just not Roman Catholic.

Sunday Mass is not part of the 10 commandments.

We have been redeemed from the Law.

[Natural Law]

"What the *church* has to say is totally irrelevant to what is reality.

That is your prerogative by virtue of your God given the free will. As I said earlier, sin is a conscious choice.

I believe God and what He told us through Scripture too. Remember the Church, that Christ founded and which provided you the Scripture you quoted, holds, from Scripture, that the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved is not valid.

Professing faith does not eliminate free will or concupiscence. It does not protect us from sinning nor render sin inconsequential. In Matthew 6:15 Jesus tells us that "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

I would ask that you consider the following Scripture:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:19-25

[metmom]

The only admonition in Scripture is to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. It says NOTHING about having to go once a week.

If someone is going to be picky about obeying the Ten Commandments, they they need to be particular to observe ALL the Law including the command of rest on the Sabbath, which is not Sunday.

And if anyone thinks that by obeying the Law, they're pleasing God or earning salvation, they need to read again what Jesus said to and about the Pharisees who were masters at keeping the Law.

The kept the Law to the letter, and it still didn't save them because the Law CAN'T save anyone. that was never it's intended purpose. The reason the Law was given was to lead us to Christ, not as a means of procuring salvation by obedience to it.

So, no, nobody is obligated or obliged to obey the Law.

Galatians 2:15-26 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:19-21 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 2:19-25 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

The Law was put into effect to show us our sinfulness and lead us to Christ for salvation in Him through faith.

When God put the Law into effect, He KNEW we'd never be able to keep it and that it could not impart spiritual life. Sin already had caused spiritual death. Life is not imparted based on works.

[metmom]

I don’t answer to the Roman church. It has no authority over me.

My mediator and advocate is Jesus Himself. He’s the one who died for me. He’s the one who forgives me. He’s the one who saves me. My life is in Him through faith, just like He said it would be.

I do not answer to a corrupt organization fancying itself God’s mouthpiece on earth. I don’t give a rip what the Catholic church’s opinion about me is.

I am trusting Christ to save me, not the church, not it’s rules and regulations, and sacraments, and all the other hoops it demands I jump through in a vain bid to try to please God only to find out too late that it wasn’t good enough anyway.

You can keep your bondage.

[boatbums]

Perhaps you need to post your gifs to God since HE was who inspired the writer of Hebrews to say what he did. You’re wasting your time posting them to me. It is more than obvious it is those like you who robotically bow down to and obey all that your “magesterium” commands without ever stopping to ask why. Without ever searching the Scriptures to see if these things be so. The trouble with such blind obedience is that it will be you and you alone who will face God at your judgment to explain why you cast aside the grace of God to save you. Those “guys” will also have their face time with God. By the looks of things, it will not be pleasant.

[metmom]

Remember the Church, that Christ founded and which provided you the Scripture you quoted, holds, from Scripture, that the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved is not valid.

Scripture was given to us by God through the Holy Spirit. The church's disingenuous claim on Scripture in bid to be able to control it and the interpretation of it is an abomination. It's an affront to God.

The only Scripture that the RCC uses to justify its power grab is twisted and misinterpreted to be able to try to do so.

No way Jesus would have given any men such unbridled power over the eternal destiny of their fellow men. The fact that the RCC is filled with immorality and corruption today, as it has been through out the centuries, is more than enough evidence against it to refute its claims of being established by Jesus and is the only legitimate church through which salvation can be procured.

Besides, salvation is not through a church, it's through a person.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

As far as OSAS, it's to any church's benefit to convince its members that it's the only means to salvation and that they can't be sure of it. It keeps them coming back.

What a power grab.

[Natural Law]

"If you are implying you are my brother, you aren't - you belong to another family."

We will all stand before the judgment seat of God and because we share the same father we are brothers.

"If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." - 1 John 4:20