Essays for Lent/Easter: Salvation Outside the Church?

StayCatholic.com ^ | 2001 | Sebastian R. Fama

[gghd]

Hmmm, must be a voice from the dead by saying, “Yep,...already...has’ in relation to the comments on this thread.

OR

Someone that thinks they are God? “but by me”

Roman Catholic Church teaches ‘free will’ & we creatures are not Gods. There is only one God in Heaven & God is revealed to us as The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit.

[johngrace]

http://eternalsecurity.us/

[gghd]

Thank you for your reply.

[gghd]

This is for anyone commenting on the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is possible to find the >actual teachings of the Catholic Church on the Internet. The Vatican has a website.

According to the Catholic Church, people are “Born Again” at Baptism. There are >three ways to be Baptized into the ‘Body of Jesus Christ.’ = 1. By Water (Typical Baptism),

2. By Blood (A Martyr’s death for the sake of Jesus Christ. An example of martyrs dying for the sake of Jesus in the Bible is all the children killed by King Herod. The Catholic Church calls all these children ‘The Holy Innocents.’ Please notice that the children killed by King Herod had >No knowledge of Jesus Christ.)

3. The Baptism by Desire. A Catholic dictionary = ‘The equivalent of sacramental baptism of water which in God’s providence is sufficient to enable a person to obtain the state of grace and to save his or her soul. According to the Church’s teaching, “those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but neverthe less seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-—those too may achieve eternal salvation.’ If that quote sounds familiar, its because it’s also in the article that leads this thread.

The person posting the article with the Moniker: salvation, has an enormous number of links >already posted on freerepublic that explain Catholic teaching. Salvation has real good links here on freerepublic. +Salvation is backed-up by folks that can pray the most powerful prayer offered to God.

[boatbums]

You are quite correct that we cannot earn our way to salvation. It is a gift, freely given, that all we need do is accept. That, to me, is a cop out. I can accept the Lord into my heart then go on a killing spree with a clear conscience. To me, once you accept the gift of salvation, you have a duty to attempt to live up to it. We can not, as we are only human, but we both can and should try.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Your use of the term "cop out" is curious, since I did not in any way condone the idea that we accept the Lord "then go on a killing spree with a clear conscience". My contention is that, per Holy Scripture, we are not saved by ANY works that we do - with which you said you concurred - and that must in turn mean we are not KEPT saved by works we do either. You see, to me, it is a cop out to say we are saved by God's grace and then turn around and say BUT you have to do this, that, and not do this, that in order to remain saved. That kind of reasoning comes from the false doctrine of infused grace rather than imparted grace.

The difference between these two really boils down to what must "we" do to be saved - since being saved is NOT a temporary condition. Either you have eternal life and are born again or you are condemned. There is no middle ground. We are born from above or we are still dead in our trespasses and sins. The real question, then, is what does Scripture say? Peter had that question asked of him, "What must I do to be saved?", when he was miraculously freed from prison. The jailer was so terrified but what he saw with his own eyes, that he wanted whatever Peter had. Did Peter answer him with, "Go to my church and do everything they tell you to do and if you did it all right, when you die you may be saved."? NO! He said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." All that other stuff about not sinning or not intentionally sinning is man-made distraction from the truth of the Good News - that God creates within us a NEW nature and we are changed from the inside. That doesn't happen because we are good enough first, but by God's grace that he pours upon us when we come to him in faith.

[boatbums]

The point is that while a villager in Africa may truly seek to know God, but not have all the information. God MAY choose to save that person because of their heart. However, we CAN'T know that, or even expect that, to happen. We also can't say that God wouldn't save that person because of no fault of their own. All we can say is that since we don't know God, we don't have enough information. God is merciful, but he is also just. Everyone likes to forget that. The only path to God is through Jesus. We pretty much all agree on that. We agree that those villagers in Africa should have the Gospel preached to them, and that has a much higher possibility of getting them to heaven than a possibility not directly mentioned in the Bible developed to answer a “what if?” question.

But Scripture DOES answer the question, in many places. Who was Abram? He was a man from Ur of the Chaldees (perhaps Iraq) who sought the TRUE God. His people worshipped multiple false gods, and he rejected that because God revealed the truth to him. He answered the call of Almighty God who tells us all:

"But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." (Deuteronomy 4:29)

for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee. (I Chronicles 28:9)

The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts. (Psalm 10:4)

The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. (Psalm 22:26)

I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. (Proverbs 8:17)

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: (Isaiah 55:6)

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)

The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him. (Lamentations 3:25)

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. (Ezekial 34:11)

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Matthew 7:7,8)

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. (Acts 15:17)

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)

God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That to me sure seems like God is letting it be known that no one has an excuse for not knowing the truth - because if he earnestly seeks it, God will get it to him. As for the aborted babies or those that die as children, they are covered under the merciful grace of God - how can they not be? There is ONLY one true God and he has made a way for mankind to be redeemed from his sins, no person will be judged because he didn't know - ALL people will know and those who refuse the light of truth will be condemned - justly. Shall not the God of all the earth do right?

[CynicalBear]

>>As for the aborted babies or those that die as children, they are covered under the merciful grace of God - how can they not be?<<

So you don’t believe that all of mankind inherits the sin of Adam thereby needing redemption? Where in scripture is it said that babies of those who have rejected God are saved?

[CynicalBear]

>>An example of martyrs dying for the sake of Jesus in the Bible is all the children killed by King Herod.<<

So all the children killed by Herod died for Jesus? I think not. They died because of Jesus but not for Jesus. If that’s a teaching of the CC it’s one of the many ways they have gone totally off track.

[Celtic Cross]

You are trying to figure out a question that we can't answer. My african villager question was hypothetical -- Who but God knows what happens to people who have never known Him?

The stance of the Catholic Church is just that -- Nobody but God can know.

[Iscool]

Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling

You don't know what that means, do you???

[EnglishCon]

Ah, my apologies! I meant that I personally consider the concept of “accept the Lord once and that is all you need to do” a bit of a cop out.
Not because I reject the truth that ONLY through Christ may you be saved, but because I know myself well enough to know that, without the rituals and obligations of the Church, I would slowly slide away from the Lord again.

Thank you for the wonderfully thoughtful answer!

[gghd]

My original comment to you was in answer to your comment about how you created a contradiction about ‘born again’ where there is NO contradiction in Catholic teaching at all.

Praise God you have accepted the Catholic Church teaching about being born again in Baptism. + How a person can be Baptized by Water, Blood, or Desire. NO longer are you arguing about ‘born again.’

You have now seized on >MY use of language of whether the ‘Holy Innocents’ died “for Jesus” or as you prefer it to be said, ‘because of Jesus.’

It appears to me that you may be commenting on this thread just for the sake of >argument. The thread is about “Salvation” through Jesus Christ. To create ‘Arguments’ about Salvation is not a road to Heaven.

May God Bless you.

[CynicalBear]

>> NO longer are you arguing about ‘born again.’<<

There was no sense in debating born again with you. A person is born again the minute He accepts Jesus as his only source of salvation. It has nothing to do with an action of man.

>> To create ‘Arguments’ about Salvation is not a road to Heaven.<<

Clarifying what is needed for salvation is indeed important in the “road to heaven”. Those who were killed by Herod did not die “for” Jesus. They died because of Herod’s attempt to kill Jesus. Your intimation that they were saved because they died because Herod was attempting to kill Jesus is not correct. To die “for” Jesus is to imply that one died believing in Jesus. Those killed by Herod did not that we know of.

[gghd]

CynicalBear, I receive cryptic comments from you without a full revelation about your theology.

Please provide a link to your church documents as it would help in understanding >what you are creating ‘arguments’ about.

Clarification is important when discussing the proper road to Heaven. What is the Name of your church? & Where can I find your church documents on the Internet?

[CynicalBear]

Read scripture and you will be reading what I believe. I belong to no earthly organized “church”. I belong to the church that all those who believe in Christ alone belong to “the bride of Christ”.

[redgolum]

God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That to me sure seems like God is letting it be known that no one has an excuse for not knowing the truth - because if he earnestly seeks it, God will get it to him. As for the aborted babies or those that die as children, they are covered under the merciful grace of God - how can they not be? There is ONLY one true God and he has made a way for mankind to be redeemed from his sins, no person will be judged because he didn't know - ALL people will know and those who refuse the light of truth will be condemned - justly. Shall not the God of all the earth do right?

Abraham is an interesting case, but you are playing a bit fast and loose, IMHO, with the situation. Abram wasn't that far removed from the Deluge, and (if you believe the Genesis genealogies) was within living memory of the sons of Shem. He probably had some idea of who and what God is from those who were his people. The story of the Flood in the epic of Gilgamesh hint at that, as does the religion of the Magi (which wasn't as clear cut at that time, but there is some evidence for it back before the Jews were forced into Persia). So Abram might have had contact with early worshipers of God pre Covenant. Remember, Moses's father in law was a priest, and not a pagan one.

Now, Josephus does say that Abram worshiped the gods of the Chaldean's before turning away from them in search of God (or as the Roman's and Greek termed it, the GodHead). That may also be the case. Either way, God choose to reveal Himself directly to Abram. That wouldn't be the case for the village in Africa (or as my old pastor termed it, the germanic hordes on the plains of what is now Russia).

Now, for abortion, you need to really think your position through, and research what the Vatican has said about unbaptized babies who die. They have stated, rather explicitly, that Limbo as a concept is not doctrine. They have also said that while God is merciful, you can't say that all children who die unbaptized go to heaven. As I said earlier, that makes abortion a good thing, almost a saving sacrament for the child.

Sadly, I have heard more than a few people say just that. Aborted babies are better off since they go straight to heaven, and therefore it is a good thing. How one dies, and when, does not directly affect getting into heaven. Now, as a personal thing, I will never tell someone who has had an abortion and repented that their child is in hell. I can't. The horrifying thing to me is that while we can hope for God's mercy, we can't know where they went. For a still born child, I was taught that the love of God of the parents will work on that child even in the womb. But can we say that for a deliberate abortion? I don't know. No one on this side of the pale does I'm afraid.

And think of this. If all babies killed by abortion went straight to heaven, wouldn't the devil want to STOP abortion?

[gghd]

Your answer explains why you seem to seek arguments with other people about Catholic teaching & this article on this thread.

Jesus Christ did NOT walk the Holy Lands handing out ‘Bibles.’ Jesus Christ created a Church. & Out of that Church, God gave us our Bible.

God wants you to gather with other Christians & attend any church. Catholic teaching recognizes that Salvation through Jesus Christ is available to >everyone.

No one can be argued into Heaven. May God Bless you.

[CynicalBear]

>> Your answer explains why you seem to seek arguments with other people about Catholic teaching & this article on this thread.<<

I simply point to error.

>> God wants you to gather with other Christians<<

Why would you assume I don’t?

[gghd]

May God Bless you.

[stpio]

“Ah, my apologies! I meant that I personally consider the concept of “accept the Lord once and that is all you need to do” a bit of a cop out.
Not because I reject the truth that ONLY through Christ may you be saved, but because I know myself well enough to know that, without the rituals and obligations of the Church, I would slowly slide away from the Lord again.”

~ ~ ~

Really....

OSAS is more than a “cop out”, it’s a false teaching.
So is the “altar call” justifies you and the “prosperity
gospel”, the third lie.

You are so correct, we need the authority of the Church.
That’s how Our Lord set it up.

Sharing a NON-CATHOLIC Christian message from Heaven.
There is one end time, Jesus is preparing everyone to
accept the true faith.

~ ~ ~

an excerpt...

April 1, 2012

Message to Kevin Barrett

Will You Let Me Take You Through the Fires of Purification?

...Oh hear Me, My people. Why do you listen to the hirelings and false teachers and prophets? Did I not say in My word that not all that say to me ‘Lord’ ‘Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, save those that do the will of the Father who is in heaven? Then why do you still go about doing your own will and tell yourselves that you are My bride? My people, you have been lied to by the enemy of your soul. Seek Me in these things. Surely I will reveal My truth to you. I love you, My dear children, and it is My desire that each of you share My throne with Me. But unfortunately only a remnant shall overcome. For too many have listened to the lies told by the false shepherds and prophets. THEY SPEAK OF HOW YOU EACH ARE ALREADY CLEANSED AND ADORNED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS SIMPLY BY YOUR BELIEF ON MY NAME. These are all lies, My people. For does not My word say that he who DOES righteousness is righteous? Yes, My people, you are made righteous by your faith in Me, but it is fulfilled by your obedience to My voice. IT IS NOT IMPUTED TO YOU BY A ONE-TIME CONFESSION OF MY NAME. Oh, My people, you have been lied to. Read My word for yourselves. Why listen to those that fatten themselves by fleecing My sheep? I have not sent many of the shepherds that are out there. They have sent themselves for their own glory and their own profit. Oh, My people, did I not say in My word to judge them by their fruit? Then where is the fruit, My people? Oh, but those that have itching ears care not about the fruit. THEY WANT TO BE TOLD ALL IS WELL AND THAT THEY SHALL PROSPER if they simply believe on My name and My promises. Lies, lies, lies, I tell you.

http://hearhisheart.wordpress.com/author/hearhisheart/