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To: redgolum; Celtic Cross
>> We can hope for God's mercy, but with the information given to us the likelihood is that those villagers were not going to make it to heaven.<<

That’s correct. Many like to revert to human emotionalism which is unscriptural. Catholics can’t have it both ways. Here is what Tertullian said which is basically the RCC view of original sin.

"Every soul, then, by reason of its birth, has its nature in Adam until it is born again in Christ; moreover, it is unclean all the while that it remains without this regeneration; and because unclean, it is actively sinful, and suffuses even the flesh (by reason of their conjunction) with its own shame." Tertullian, On the Soul, 40 (A.D. 208).

Catholics can’t believe that man must be “born again in Christ” to be saved and that those who are not “born again” can also be saved.

59 posted on 04/24/2012 7:03:48 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; Celtic Cross
Its not just a “Catholic” problem. Lutheran doctrine also addresses this in part.

The point is that while a villager in Africa may truly seek to know God, but not have all the information. God MAY choose to save that person because of their heart. However, we CAN'T know that, or even expect that, to happen. We also can't say that God wouldn't save that person because of no fault of their own. All we can say is that since we don't know God, we don't have enough information. God is merciful, but he is also just. Everyone likes to forget that.

The only path to God is through Jesus. We pretty much all agree on that. We agree that those villagers in Africa should have the Gospel preached to them, and that has a much higher possibility of getting them to heaven than a possibility not directly mentioned in the Bible developed to answer a “what if?” question.

Now for Catholics, that field is narrowed to those who are full members of the Roman Catholic church (even non Roman rites are suspect to some theologians). There are and were good reasons for that doctrine to develop. Much like most Christians in the US would put Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses outside the pale of the “Church”.

The danger is that you have to start asking yourself, what saves a man? The church as an earthly body? (Which the Catholics don't really teach) Just Jesus (what about the Mormans or muslims who have a very different picture of what and who Jesus is)? That is the question we must all answer, and work out in fear and trembling.

60 posted on 04/24/2012 7:20:49 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: CynicalBear

This is for anyone commenting on the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is possible to find the >actual teachings of the Catholic Church on the Internet. The Vatican has a website.

According to the Catholic Church, people are “Born Again” at Baptism. There are >three ways to be Baptized into the ‘Body of Jesus Christ.’ = 1. By Water (Typical Baptism),

2. By Blood (A Martyr’s death for the sake of Jesus Christ. An example of martyrs dying for the sake of Jesus in the Bible is all the children killed by King Herod. The Catholic Church calls all these children ‘The Holy Innocents.’ Please notice that the children killed by King Herod had >No knowledge of Jesus Christ.)

3. The Baptism by Desire. A Catholic dictionary = ‘The equivalent of sacramental baptism of water which in God’s providence is sufficient to enable a person to obtain the state of grace and to save his or her soul. According to the Church’s teaching, “those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but neverthe less seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-—those too may achieve eternal salvation.’ If that quote sounds familiar, its because it’s also in the article that leads this thread.

The person posting the article with the Moniker: salvation, has an enormous number of links >already posted on freerepublic that explain Catholic teaching. Salvation has real good links here on freerepublic. +Salvation is backed-up by folks that can pray the most powerful prayer offered to God.


64 posted on 04/24/2012 12:25:52 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: CynicalBear
You are trying to figure out a question that we can't answer. My african villager question was hypothetical -- Who but God knows what happens to people who have never known Him?

The stance of the Catholic Church is just that -- Nobody but God can know.

69 posted on 04/24/2012 4:33:53 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (The brain is the weapon; everything else is just accessories. --FReeper Joe Brower)
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