Posted on 04/26/2012 1:32:13 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
I did read it all, grey. And what I stated still stnads. When Christ returns HE will be the ruler, the Lord of the whole earth and He will govern in rightousness.
If that is the case and He asks the Elders of His Church at the time to minister, I expect they will do so, and all Christians will flock to those calling at His direction...whatever it may be.
we have had this concersation in the past, on several occasions.
At that time, I will happily and gratefully do as Christ bids, and I expect you will too.
And that is also counterbalanced by the 2nd, 3rd, & 4TH generations of Mormons still living who were part of a quite distinctive mainstream Mormon culture that Jeff Head seems to refuse to acknowledge on these threads...It's what I called part of the Mormon heritage that's still a "wildcard" ... because you don't even know which Mormon descendents & their ancestors took this oath to their God seriously enough to carry it out:
Do we realize -- that if you were a temple Mormon in 1926 -- ALL temple Mormons promised to fulfill the following Oath of Vengeance in their sacred temple ceremony:
You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets UPON THIS NATION, and that YOU WILL TEACH THE SAME TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO YOUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN UNTO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATION. Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2335353/posts
Fact: Mitt Romney was born in 1947. We could doubt all we want that he took such an oath...since we know it wasn't imposed upon its followers by the Mormon church since 1926.
But Mitt's father, George, was 19 years old when this oath was still being imposed in the Mormon temple. How do we know George didn't take this oath...or Mitt's grandfathers??? These men made an oath to their God that they would teach it to their grandchildren and Mitt's kids, too!
Are they oath-breakers...covenant-breakers to their god? Or do they keep their promises made in their sacred temples?
What kind of wildcard "vengeance" awaits this nation by these men who swore such oaths -- and generationally fulfilled their promises to pass them on?
Do you believe this?
“What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)
You know, at times those of us who regularly converse with Lds walk a balance.
We love to hear statements like yours which sound Biblical...'cause frankly we know a lot of Mormons do read the Bible...and we know that influences them...
So part of that balance will be to "amen" when Mormons read Biblical conclusions. But when those Mormons then usurp General Authority authority...and portend that what they are saying represents official Mormondom... No, that just won't do.
Because it allows you to spin what isn't so.
So if the above is your personal take on the atonement, why would I want to attack that?
But...If you are claiming that is what the Mormon church officially teaches re: the atonement...think again.
Now what is incomplete re: what Jeff says...that betrays official Mormon teaching on the atonement?
#1 Christ's atonement covers our sin nature...something Mormons even deny that humankind has (a sin nature)
What do I mean by a sin nature?
Allow us all to filter our understanding thru the Living Word -- Jesus Christ: 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. (Matthew 15:19)
Our heart isn't simply corrupted by the sin we allow into our lives; no, Jesus says that it's our heart that spills over into enacted sin...
Let's go back to Jewish theological thought from a long time ago:
* Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5) [Based on this verse, Joseph Smith & Mormons call the Psalmists a liar on this...they think the Psalms teaches falsely on this]
* Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward... (Psalm 58:3)
What people mix up is that they think the Garden happens all over again at some point in their life: something environmental tempts them & then they sin "for the first time." Until then, they think they're innocent. [Mormons teach that children are perfect angels until age 8...I guess all those children's temper tantrums are just done to help parents be better people -- and no other "sinful" reason]
Unlike Adam & Eve, people do not simply sin & then become sinful; they sin because they are sinful by nature. The symptoms are the misdeeds -- not the diagnosis itself.
People's spiritual nature is dead (Eph. 2:1), which the NT describes as being in bondage to sin (Romans 6).
Now, in contrast what does the Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasize? It teaches that men are subject to punishment for their own sins; their Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."]
IOW, not for Adam's sin nature that's been generationally passed down.
This, plain and simple, is heresy. And Mormons, like Jeff, are heretics for denying all of the Biblical scriptures above.
#2 What is the other Lds "atonement" teaching that Jeff Head conveniently ignore -- as taught by another Jeff H. in the Mormon hierarchy?
Answer?
Well, God bless her, Greyfoxx39 posted this relevant thread a few years back:
ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)
The speaker/writer is Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland.
From this link, Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to ONLY to members of the Mormon church:
From that Holland message: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church...
Notice from the above quote all that Jeff Head left out re: Jeff Holland's claims:
* The Mormon version of the atonement doesn't "take" minus your "obedience" and diligent command-keeping;
* And that people "are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they are baptized in his name...and confirmation into Christ's church...
Per Mormonism, what is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth? The Mormon church...no membership...no atonement (payment for your sin; at-one-ment reconciliation with the Father) for you.
Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects |
Mormon Source[Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain] |
| “...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
| ...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
| Mormon church the only ‘Christ-sanctioned’ church on earth: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth” [Obvious ‘scorched earth’ implication: All other churches are false and dead] | Lds “scripture” Doctrines & Covenants 1:30 |
Jesus is THE Spiritual Physician of spiritual physicians.
He didn't say jump thru these commandment & membership hoops, oh wretched spiritually infirmed one...oh, spiritual cancerous person, & then we'll talking about covering your sin.
No, Jeff. God in Christ levels the playing field before the cross by undercutting any spiritual pride that presumes anybody from any religion doesn’t need Him as our great physician ("It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...For I have NOT COME to call the righteous, but sinners."--Matthew 9:12)
The atonement is for us unhealthy sinners, Jeff...not just membership Mormons in good standing to collect a series of temple recommends from Bishop Romney & the rest of the Lds bishops...
We join with the apostle Paul in declaring the TRUE Gospel:
* But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)
* Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. (1 Timothy 1:15)
* But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would BELIEVE in him and RECEIVE eternal life. (1 Timothy 1:16)
I have been a terrible sinner, Jeff. I have needed Jesus Christ the Physician. His atonement covered my sin pre-hoop jumping. Your leaders put up boundaries that don't exist.
We believe and RECEIVE as sinners (not meritoriously earn) eternal life -- just like those in Christ did before the Mormon church ever came along and labeled the rest of us "apostates."
Jeff you could no more overcome your spiritual cancer (sin) of you own volition, effort, diligence, commandment-keeping, membership alliance, and obedience to any given regimen than physical cancer. It's time for a NEW SAVIOR in your life...One Who can heal you PHYSICALLY and SPIRITUALLY right now in HIS POWER with signs & wonders following this convo.
As always, its a circular discussion with you.
I have accepted Jesus Christ, just as I have said. He alone saves and has saved me. Good works follow them that believe, they do not make their faith and they do not earn them a spot in Heaven. They are a natural conclusion to the acceptance and following of Him.
A real conversion produces this. Christ said, “if ye love me, keep my commandments.” We believe that, but you confuse which comes first, the horse or the cart in LDS faith...in fact, as with many denominations, members get this wrong too.
We are not earning our way to Heaven Col, despite your protestations and declarative staements to LDS people to the contrary about what they believe, as though you can see in their hearts and make this determination. You cannot, only God in Heaven and His Son can.
No, we are not and cannot “earn” our way to Heaven. We are just trying, as He commanded us, out of our love for Him, to keep His commandments as we ubnderstand them.
Again, God’s blessings to you.
First, the Journal of Dicourses is not scripture, and it is not where the “Doctrine of the Church,” is offical.
It is a set of sermons and speeches given by members and leaders of the Church over a long period of time.
Some of it is Doctrine, other is not, but is the personal feelings of those who gave it. You can find the official Church doctrine on the Church web site:
Now, as to that quote, I believe that when He returns, which is when this is referring to, that the Lord Jesus Christ shall rule the whole earth, and I believe He shall accomplish it through the body of His saints, through His church.
Will that be exactly like the LDS Church is today?...porbably not exactly, but we believe it will be very close and that He will institute it and use it to govern in perfect rightousness, which we as imperfect mortals cannot do.
Whatever it is, all of us who truly and sincerely believe in, have faith in, and have accepted Him will be there to witness it and will all gladly abide by it at that day.
Say what ever in your man made teachings - but DO NOT ADD 'GOD said' 'God decreed' or the HOLY SPIRIT this or Jesus said, unless it is Scriptural - because as THEY ARE ONE - THEY AGREED - or any other of manipulation words to insinuate it.
“What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.
Remember - everything that is not of God will be destroyed when HE returns and that includes any man made teachings - ONLY TRUTH will stand and rule. And that 'Mormonism' statement will go up in smoke! As THE TRUTH comes from HIM ALONE!!
Will the mormons join with the Christians in the move to HIS church? It will mean giving up their false beliefs.
What a joy and relief it will be to them to find that all the laws, covenants, and rituals have been unnecessary and His Grace will be there for true believers.
I'll be so glad when this election is over and the political Witch Hunt to destroy a man through his religious beliefs rather than his liberal record is OVER! These Mormon bashing threads are way over the top.
Signed,
A Baptist raised Christian
Responses appriciated. Thank-you.
The questions that I have in regards to the Mormon faith is these two, why the “extra book” called the Book of Mormon and why you do not put a Cross on the top of your temples?
Without the Cross of Christ, there cannot be a risen and living Lord.
You saw a sign and read into it what you wanted to see. I read the parable of the wheat and the weeds and know what the “open doors” campaign really meant.
I admit that there is a huge leftist influence in the UMC leadership. They are out of touch with the local church congregations, who tend to be conservative. But they also inject the radical thought needed to keep us from closing our doors on the world and hiding “our” God from it because we’ve decided that the heathens outside aren’t worthy.
Not mormon bashing, exposing mormonISM.
When you say Jesus you apparently are talking about the Biblical Jesus, who is eternal.
When lds say jesus they are talking about a created being.
When you say God you apparently are talking about the eternal, always was and always will be.
When lds say god they are talking about a being who was once a man and earned his godhood.
When you say Salvation you apparently are talking about the sufficiency of Grace from the Cross.
When lds say salvation they are talking about works, there is no cross but the garden, rules, regulations and Joseph Smith helping out the lds jesus.
I am not sure why you apparently are unable to grasp those differences.
How do you reconcile that with the teachings of mormonism and the lds prophets?
April 8, 1973, LDS Apostle Mark E. Petersen proclaimed that salvation "comes only through the Church itself as the Lord established it. Therefore it was made clearly manifest that salvation is in the Church, and of the Church, and is obtained only through the Church."
"From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are, I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent" (Journal of Discourses 7:289).
The Book of Mormon says of salvation: "for we know that is is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do" (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23).
George Q. Cannon "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him." -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon
Joseph Fielding Smith: "that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.134).
Bruce McConkie: "Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation, and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved" (The Mortal Messiah, Vol.4, p.434).
Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pg. 153:"Each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world"
So in order to be “Christian” such is ignored...
Well the Saints may well be right for once, these are indeed the Latter Days...
Kymbaya...
Well the Saints may well be right for once, these are indeed the Latter Days...
Kymbaya...
For your edification, from the Southern Baptist Missions Board...
http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbnew.aspx?pageid=8589952813
Let's consider your claim Jeff. Since you are using half-truth to mean whatever you want it mean, let's start with a definition:
half–truthDefinition of HALF-TRUTH1: a statement that is only partially true2: a statement that mingles truth and falsehood with deliberate intent to deceive
Please note that Merriam Webster defines it EXACTLY as I used it.
I have sincerely born you my witness and it is up to you to deal with it however you will. But the witness is sincere and it is true. It is not "finely crafted" it is not meant to hide anything, it is simply my wintess and the feelings of my own heart regarding my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The fact that you think you have to tell me what I believe, and then try and define my words to fit that definition, is what is really happening here, and it ios ashame that you feel you have to be so judgemental...but if that is your desire, so be it. I am more than content for others reading to make up their own mind, and as I stated, ready, willing, and comfortable to stand before my Savior when He calls me, for I know He knows my heart and the truth of my convictions to Him. God's best to you and yours.
Totally posted before I wanted it to... sorry. I’ll try again.
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