Posted on 04/27/2012 6:36:28 PM PDT by Salvation
Baptism does not mean water and water does not mean baptism...Look it up if you don't believe me...
Thank you for giving me another opportunity to prove you wrong and the Catholic Church correct.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baptize?s=t
bap·tize /bæpˈtaɪz, ˈbæptaɪz/ Show Spelled [bap-tahyz, bap-tahyz] Show IPA verb, bap·tized, bap·tiz·ing. verb (used with object)
1. to immerse in water or sprinkle or pour water on in the Christian rite of baptism: They baptized the new baby.
2. to cleanse spiritually; initiate or dedicate by purifying.
3. to give a name to at baptism; christen. verb (used without object)
4. to administer baptism.
Origin: 1250–1300; Middle English < Late Latin baptizāre < Greek baptízein to immerse ( bápt ( ein ) to bathe + -izein -ize)
If you want to take it a step further it means to "Whelm" which means to fully wet.
Piece of really sound advice here, when a Catholic tells you something that you disagree with, just assume that you don't have a clue and change your opinion to match their facts.
So you are at odds then with the Catholic originator of this thread who puts fear into your crowd by suggesting there are dire consequences for your child if he/she dies without baptism...
So much for your beleaguered Catholic unity...
Are you saved by God's will, his action, and his grace, or by your own knowledge?
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ -- 1 Pt 3:21, KJV
Phillip wasn't speaking to a baby, nor was he speaking of babies. You're trying to create general doctrine from a specific instance which doesn't necessarily apply.
Yup...Just throw the bible in the trash and believe a Catholic...LOLOL...I don't think so...
1. to immerse in water or sprinkle or pour water on in the Christian rite of baptism: They baptized the new baby.
You need to find a real dictionary...Baptize does not mean sprinkle...Baptize means 'immerse'...It doesn't mean water...
That's why John the Baptist said, 'Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
You'll notice that it doesn NOT say that Jesus baptizes with water and the Holy Ghost...
John the Baptist baptized with water, for remission of sins...Jesus baptized with the Holy Ghost, (not water) for the birth of the New Man...There is no water in the New Birth...
2. to cleanse spiritually; initiate or dedicate by purifying.
You'll also notice in your posted definition that baptism does not indicate water...It does however signify a cleansing...Not the cleansing of water but a spiritual cleansing that only the Holy Ghost can provide...
Definition of WATER 1 a : the liquid that descends from the clouds as rain, forms streams, lakes, and seas, and is a major constituent of all living matter and that when pure is an odorless, tasteless, very slightly compressible liquid oxide of hydrogen H2O which appears bluish in thick layers, freezes at 0° C and boils at 100° C, has a maximum density at 4° C and a high specific heat, is feebly ionized to hydrogen and hydroxyl ions, and is a poor conductor of electricity and a good solvent
Water does not mean baptize... A far better piece of sound advice would be for you to dump your catechism and buy a Bible and do some serious study...
The problem is that if you through out Original Sin, you start asking if you need God at all to be saved, or to say it differently, what is your theology on salvation?
It is coming apparent to me that a great many Evangelicals have no concept of Original sin, or just plain sin for that matter. Some of the Easter threads and discussions have been rather interesting. Everyone seems to want to make a nice idol of Buddy Jesus, who never is mean and never judges. They forget what the real Jesus did to the market outside of the Temple, or what God did to the Canaanites. God is not nice. He is Good. That is the biggest thing many don't understand. God's mercy is why we hope for salvation. God's justice is why we needed Jesus's death to even have that hope, and why we are all damned without it.
Sure it applies...The command is always, REPENT and be baptized...Babies don't repent...
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
If you believe not, you will be damned...Doesn't say a word about being damned for not being baptized...
So that's the best refutation you can come up with, eh???
Sorry Charlie, my testimony is and always has been that I have repented; turned to Jesus and made him MY Lord and Savior...I have been baptized with the Holy Ghost and have been baptized (immersed) in water for a public and personal show of my convictions...
What's YOUR testimony???
I am not going to debate your theology, only your hermeneutics, because you are asserting things with respect to Catholicism not supported by facts. Personally I find Baptism by immersion commendable.
Although Baptism (βαπτίζω) can mean immersion, it does not exclusively do so. It idiomatically also meant to ritualistically clean or even to dye. There are two versus in Scripture where it clearly did not mean to immerse. The first:
"Now when He had spoken, a Pharisee *asked Him to have lunch with him; and He went in, and reclined at the table. When the Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that He had not first ceremonially washed before the meal. But the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness." - Luke 11:37-39
The word used for wash was (ἐβαπτίσθη, aorist passive of βαπτίζω—literally, "be baptized") before eating.
The second:
"The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)- Mark 7:1-4
Here too the word wash was literally, "baptize themselves" (βαπτίσωνται, passive or middle voice of βαπτίζω). We see additional evidence of the intended meaning to wash away sin when the word used was apolouo (ἀπολούω) in Acts 22:16.
Peace be to you.
The divide also fractures between the neo-Pelagians (most "evangelicals" who believe that you have to "do" something in order to be saved) and the orthodox catholics (intentionally lower case for both words) who trust God's grace and Christ's plain words.
1Pe 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
1Pe 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
Jesus was baptised in the Jordan river with wait for it .........Water.......the exact same thing that the Didache calls for.Is there some part of that which is unclear to you? (That is really a rhetorical question sionce I know you will find some ignorant comment to use ignoring the facts.
I believe there is more than enough room for debate here...
Since the idea is to clean, it stands to reason that water is the medium...It also stands to reason that the hands had to be immersed or covered with water to achieve a sufficient cleaning...
Sprinkling 3 drops of water onto dirty hands will never do the trick...
Correct; as with any other issue, it is near impossible to generalize among all the Protestants. I believe, Presbyterians likewise baptize babies.
One thing is common to all Protestants: letting their pastors interpret the Bible for them, and that was the subtext of my admittedly aggressive in tone post.
You understand, do you not that the point is not that a baby cannot repent (for example, because he cannot talk) but that he has nothing to repent about?
Logically, if babies have nothing to repent of, then they should be baptized without expecting repentance.
That all depends on what it is you are trying to remove.
Where is that in the Bible? Mark 16:16, at least, implies that baptism and faith are at least to some extent independent. And besides, baptism is only possible if the parents of the child are of solid faith.
Heaven is likely full of children
No one on this thread argues otherwise.
Okay, you don't have a testimony where you turned to Jesus and asked him to be your own personal Lord and Savior...
1Pe 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Nope...No one was saved thru water...They were saved by the water...In fact, they all stayed dry...Luckily, the boat floated...
And so what was that??? A baptism??? Of course not...It turns out for us to be a 'like figure' of a baptism...
Did they get wet??? Nope...And do we get wet in the baptism referred to here??? Nope...
In fact, Peter makes a distinction between getting a 'wet' baptism and a 'dry' one...
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
No water...Baptism does not mean water, or a wet cleansing...
but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: No water in the good conscience baptism...It's a spiritual baptism...It's all in your mind, and soul, and spirit...
Baptism requries water since it literally means to wet. Show something different with a legitimate opinion. Use the orignal Greek I dare you.
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