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Irish govm't to make it criminal offense for a priest not to report sex offender confessions
Catholic Herald ^ | June 15, 2012 | WILLIAM ODDIE

Posted on 06/16/2012 8:39:57 AM PDT by NYer

Full Title:

The Irish government is going to make it a criminal offence for a priest not to tell the gardai when a sex offender confesses his crime: I say, bring it on

Alan Shatter, Ireland's Minister for Justice (PA photo)

Alan Shatter, Ireland's Minister for Justice (PA photo)

“It has to be made clear to everyone, including the main Church in this State, that the rights of children and the laws of the land come first,” Senator David Cullinane was reported by the Irish Times as saying earlier this week in Seanad Éireann. “Priests should know that they cannot use the confessional seal as a reason for not coming forward with information on abuse.”

And that is what the government of the Irish republic has now reaffirmed. According to the Minister for Justice, Alan Shatter, if a priest or a bishop, prosecuted under the legislation he intends to introduce, were to claim entitlement to “some form of privilege”, the courts might be called on to decide the issue, since the special position of the Catholic Church has been removed from the Constitution. He did not, he went on, believe that where a child or a vulnerable adult had been a victim of abuse, the Irish courts would hold that it was “of benefit to the State” that those who knew of the abuse should conceal it.

And so, there we are. They are really going ahead with this. Last month, Shatter announced the publication of his bill, which will make it a criminal offence for a priest who learns while hearing a confession about a case or cases of child abuse, from the abuser himself, not to break the seal of the confessional and inform the civil authorities of what he knows. The Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill is, says the Irish government, one element of a “suite of legislation to protect children and vulnerable adults to which the Government is committed”.

It is the classic tension between the law of the state and the law of God: we are back, in Ireland of all places (Ireland, semper fidelis, Pope John Paul ironically called it), to Becket and Henry II. But the problems the Irish State is going to have with this legislation will not be solved by moving against one or more troublesome priests who resist it: the divided Irish Church will be as one in resisting it: not one single priest will obey it. Even the ultra-liberal Association of Catholic Priests has condemned the proposed legislation: “I certainly wouldn’t be willing to break the seal of Confession for anyone,” was the reaction of Fr Sean McDonagh, one of the ACP’s leaders.

Of course he wouldn’t. It’s the one thing no Catholic priest would ever do; it’s in the basic DNA of the priesthood. According to article 1467 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “Given the delicacy and greatness of this ministry and the respect due to persons, the Church declares that every priest who hears Confessions is bound under very severe penalties to keep absolute secrecy regarding the sins that his penitents have confessed to him. He can make no use of knowledge that Confession gives him about penitents’ lives. This secret, which admits of no exceptions, is called the ‘sacramental seal’, because what the penitent has made known to the priest remains ‘sealed’ by the sacrament.”

Those “very severe penalties” are severe indeed, as severe as it gets: the Code of Canon Law is very clear: “A confessor who directly violates the seal of Confession incurs an automatic excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See”: that means that he loses the most precious things in his life: he loses both the sacraments of the Church and the exercise of his priesthood, and also that these things can be restored to him only by the Pope himself. As Fr William Saunders puts it: “A priest … cannot break the seal to save his own life, to protect his good name, to refute a false accusation, to save the life of another, to aid the course of justice (like reporting a crime), or to avert a public calamity. He cannot be compelled by law to disclose a person’s confession or be bound by any oath he takes, eg as a witness in a court trial. A priest cannot reveal the contents of a Confession either directly, by repeating the substance of what has been said, or indirectly, by some sign, suggestion, or action. A Decree from the Holy Office (Nov. 18, 1682) mandated that confessors are forbidden, even where there would be no revelation direct or indirect, to make any use of the knowledge obtained in the Confession that would ‘displease’ the penitent or reveal his identity.”

We know that all, of course: but more importantly, so does the Irish government. So what are they playing at? Well, politics, of course. They want to back the Irish Church even further into the very hard place it at present inhabits, by making it look as though the Church doesn’t even want to confront the problem of clerical child abuse. “I would expect,” says Mr Shatter, “that if there was someone going to Confession who was a serial sex abuser, I don’t know how anyone could live with their conscience if they didn’t refer that to the gardai.” So it’s now a matter of conscience that a priest should betray his priesthood.

But suppose the clergy said they would inform on a child abuser? The child abuser wouldn’t be in the confessional in the first place if he didn’t want to face up to what he had done. And as David Quinn has pointed out: “No child abuser will go to a priest in Confession knowing the priest is required to inform the police. But cutting off the avenue of confession to a child abuser makes it less likely that he will talk to someone who can persuade him to take the next step.” The next step is himself to go to the police: it does happen. A confessor may and should try to convince him of that; but he will never get the chance if abusers are scared away from the confessional.

It is the very identity, the raison d’etre of the Church the Irish State is now bent on weakening: but this is a battle they will lose. In defence of the seal of the confessional, of the law of God over the law of the state, saints and martyrs over the ages have gone to their deaths. No Irish priest will lose his life over this: but if the Irish State wants to turn the Irish clergy from being perceived by Irish public opinion as perpetrators or at least collaborators to being seen (as were Catholic priests of earlier centuries, both in Ireland and also here in England) as victims of an unjust law, let it be so: a few dozen Irish priests in jail could both restore the Church’s reputation for self-sacrifice and integrity and even serve as a kind of vicarious penance for what is past, the innocent suffering for the guilty. If they really want a cause célèbre, in which the Church is victimised by the State, I say bring it on.

I have a small statue, which I bought in Prague shortly after I became a Catholic over 20 years ago, of St John Nepomuk, who might be described as the Thomas à Becket of the Bohemian Church. St John was the vicar general to the Archbishop of Prague. King Wenceslas IV, a dissolute, capricious and easily enraged young man, became suspicious that his virtuous Queen was involved in a sexual intrigue with a courtier. St John was the Queen’s confessor. Although Wenceslas (definitely not Good King Wenceslas) was himself extremely promiscuous, he became increasingly jealous of his wife. Wencelas tortured St John to force him to reveal the content of the Queen’s confessions. In the end, St John was thrown into the River Vltava and drowned, on March 20, 1393. I bought my little statue of him from an old lady on the Charles Bridge in Prague, at the very spot where, according to tradition, St John was thrown to his death. As I write, it stands on my desk.

No Irish priest, as I say, will lose his life over this. But I really hope the Irish government presses on with this astonishing and unique legislation, and that the courts uphold it. Then we shall see what the Irish Church is really made of. Irish Catholics will be united by it: and in the end, the government will have to back down.



TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: abovethelaw; b48orits2late; confession; homosexualagenda; ireland; pedophile
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To: Sacajaweau
The seal of the confessional was a man made rule. And sometimes man has to use common sense. What the hell do you think God gave you a brain for??

So a Catholic rapes four children and kills two of them...Goes to confession...Tells the priest he's sorry and won't do it again...

Priest tells him he is forgiven and to go and sin no more...

Now the guy has been forgiven by God and has a clean conscience...Til the next time anyway...

41 posted on 06/16/2012 11:17:43 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: goseminoles
If you can’t make an intellectual argument, pound sand..

That's your specialty.

42 posted on 06/16/2012 11:18:19 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: goseminoles

This whole argument is idiotic. If the confessional seal is broken sex offenders won’t confess anymore, and if they did it would be hearsay and unadmissable. The state is puffing out its chest to look like a big man and probably knows this is all a PR show.


43 posted on 06/16/2012 11:23:47 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Iscool

“So a Catholic rapes four children and kills two of them...Goes to confession...Tells the priest he’s sorry and won’t do it again...

Priest tells him he is forgiven and to go and sin no more”

Uh, what? Have you ever heard of a little thing called atonement? I don’t imagine there’s a priest in the world who would ask nothing more of a rapist murderer than to confess.

It’s one thing to go after the idea of forgiveness. Religion can certainly be exploited cynically. Some people even figure they can be good Catholics and do whatever the hell they want so long as they don’t die unexpectedly and get the last rites. But make sense in you attack, at least. Gross parodies have to have some level of credibility.


44 posted on 06/16/2012 11:29:00 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane
Uh, what? Have you ever heard of a little thing called atonement? I don’t imagine there’s a priest in the world who would ask nothing more of a rapist murderer than to confess.

OK...Give an example...What would a priest require for an atonement in such a situation???

45 posted on 06/16/2012 11:38:06 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: NYer

The most likely result is that politicians and teachers will stop going to confession.


46 posted on 06/16/2012 11:38:32 AM PDT by DPMD
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To: AGreatPer
I want all governments out of all religious affairs.

Covering up sex crimes is a religious affair? Well then your religion is a criminal conspiracy.

47 posted on 06/16/2012 11:42:49 AM PDT by Salman
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To: Iscool

“OK...Give an example...What would a priest require for an atonement in such a situation???”

Turning themselves in to the police, of course.


48 posted on 06/16/2012 12:08:55 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: goseminoles
Priests should be obligated to report this info. Its criminal not to.

Then the practice of the Catholic religion is criminal, because this is a non-negotiable for us.

And a country whose government can declare our religion "criminal," shut it down, and throw our ministers in prison can do exactly the same thing to your religion.

That's why we have a first amendment, or at least, we used to.

49 posted on 06/16/2012 2:31:36 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: maxwellsmart_agent
In 5th grade, in Sister Saint Catherine’s class, she warned us this would happen within our lifetime.

Sounds like her 'prophecy' was made post VCII. Do you recall the year?

50 posted on 06/16/2012 2:32:41 PM PDT by NYer (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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To: Iscool
So a fundamentalist rapes four children and kills two of them...confesses his sins to God...Tells God he's sorry and won't do it again...

What's the difference, Iscool? The state can't force God to testify at the point of a gun?

Incidentally, the law in this country protects the confidentiality of discussions with all ministers of religion, not just Catholic priests.

Also incidentally, a priest is typically not going to let someone who confesses a heinous crime off the hook just for saying he's sorry. There's this little matter of penance, which may well involve a visit to the police station in addition to 5 Hail Marys.

51 posted on 06/16/2012 2:37:48 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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Comment #52 Removed by Moderator

To: Salman
Covering up sex crimes is a religious affair? Well then your religion is a criminal conspiracy.

The law protects discussions with clergymen and lawyers. Attorney-client privilege doesn't turn defense attorneys into co-conspirators, doesn't turn the practice of criminal law into a "criminal conspiracy," and defense attorneys aren't required to tattle to the DA every time they discover something that might be interesting to the prosecution. In fact, a defense attorney who did that would be incompetent.

Although some FReepers can't seem to grasp the fact, even accused child molesters have the same legal rights as anyone else accused of a crime.

And freedom of religion applies to everyone ... that is, if you expect to keep it.

53 posted on 06/16/2012 2:44:27 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: DPMD
The most likely result is that politicians and teachers will stop going to confession.

A few years ago, our pastor was doing sick calls at a local catholic hospital. One of the individuals he visited was a retired Democrat politician whose son had followed in his footsteps and was well respected. The senior politician had just been delivered a death notice by his medical team. During his pastoral visit, this individual asked the priest to hear his confession.

The priest, ever conscious of the seal of confession, used the situation as an example to uphold the right to life position to his congregation at a Sunday liturgy. While no name was mentioned, it was fairly easy to figure out who had made the confession. The priest did not expound on how he administered the sacrament, he encouraged his parishioners to be pro-active in support of life.

These politicians and teachers have consciences but place politics before faith. Those fortunate enough to reach the point of the above-cited politico, use their final days to draw the 'repentance' card, much like Ted Kennedy. Ultimately, they will stand before God and be judged, like all of us.

55 posted on 06/16/2012 2:49:45 PM PDT by NYer (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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Comment #56 Removed by Moderator

Comment #57 Removed by Moderator

To: wagglebee; little jeremiah

Moral absolutes and homosexual agenda ping.

There is a huge hotbed of pedophile defenders on this thread, defending practitioners of the perversion as if opposing pedophelia was an attack on catholicism. Even when the defenders of children are themselves Catholic.


58 posted on 06/16/2012 2:55:49 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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Comment #59 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

Ah, the government. The only folks who would tell people, in effect, “I’m going to order you to do something that’ll get you fired” and not expect to be laughed at.


60 posted on 06/16/2012 2:57:29 PM PDT by RichInOC (Jesus is coming back soon...and man, is He ticked off. (I'm trying to keep it clean.))
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