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Following-Truth:5 Facts That Must Be Ignored BeforeAccusing CatholicsOf “Mary Worship”[Cath & Open]
Following the Truth.com ^ | Jun 19th, 2012 | Gary Zimak

Posted on 07/03/2012 4:52:59 PM PDT by Salvation

5 Facts That Must Be Ignored Before Accusing Catholics Of “Mary Worship”!


I love the Blessed Mother! There…I said it and I’m glad I did! As a Catholic, I’m so blessed to be a member of the Church that truly honors and respects the Mother of my Lord and Savior. I must admit that, even though I’m a cradle Catholic, I didn’t always feel this way. In fact, for most of my life I didn’t understand Mary’s role or care about her too much. What a mistake! Now, after several recent accusations of “Mary worship” on my Facebook page, it’s time to stand up for my “Mom”. And, even though I love her and want to defend her honor, I have no intention of getting nasty. Rather, I’d prefer to present 5 facts about Mary. Before you accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, I ask you to take a long hard look at these facts. They have a way of poking holes in the theory that we place too much emphasis on Mary. If you still want to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, then I suggest you ignore these facts!

1. God Sent The Savior Through Mary – I list this one first because it’s really tough to downplay Mary’s importance while acknowledging that the long awaiting Messiah came to earth by being born of a woman…and that woman was Mary. Out of all the ways that Jesus could have come to earth, why was Mary chosen? If Mary was important to God, shouldn’t she mean something to us?

2. Jesus Performed His First Miracle At Mary’s Request - This is another good one. Oh I know, Jesus didn’t need Mary to turn the water into wine at Cana. She just happened to be there. OK, why then did St. John list Mary FIRST in his list of wedding guests?

On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage with His disciples. (John 2:1-2)

If Mary is not important in this saga, why is she listed BEFORE the apostles and BEFORE Jesus? St. John the Evangelist was not known for inserting extraneous details. Mary is listed first because John wants to call the readers’ attention to her presence at the wedding.

But what about “the rebuke”? You know, the argument that Jesus was telling Mary to “butt out” when He stated:

“O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:4)

Jesus was a devout Jew and an obedient follower of the Ten Commandments. Why would He publicly dishonor His mother in violation of the Fourth Commandment? Secondly, if this was such a “put down” by Jesus, why did He go ahead and perform the miracle of changing water into wine? Wouldn’t that have been the end of the request. Of course it would, unless He wasn’t putting Mary down. When His mother interceded on behalf of the couple, Our Lord decided that His time had now come. Don’t you think Jesus is trying to tell us something? Isn’t is probable that Jesus waited until Mary’s request, in order to show us her intercessory power? Doesn’t that explain why St. John listed her first among the guests?

3. Jesus Gave Mary To John From The Cross – As He suffered and died on the Cross, Jesus made a very profound statement:

When Jesus saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing near, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:26-27)

Why, while struggling to speak as He hung on the Cross, would Jesus have spoken these words if they didn’t mean anything? Could He have been making small talk? Obviously, there was a reason that Our Lord did what He did. The Church has always believed that John represented each member of the Church and that, from that moment on, Mary became our spiritual mother. Scripture tells us that, on that day John accepted Jesus’ gift and “took her to his own home” (John 19:27). Shouldn’t we do the same?

4. Jesus’ First Graces Were Given Through Mary – This is a fact that frequently gets overlooked by those who wish to downplay Mary’s importance…and it comes straight from the Bible! After accepting God’s offer to become the Mother of the Savior, Mary traveled “in haste” to visit her relative, Elizabeth.

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the child leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:41)

According to this Bible passage, before Jesus was even born, Mary’s voice was used to deliver the graces to Elizabeth. Why? Because she’s not important? Isn’t there some other way, these graces could have been dispensed?

Not convinced? Listen to what Elizabeth had to say (also directly from the Bible)…

“For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.” (Luke 1:44)

It’s pretty hard to deny the importance of Mary’s presence and voice in dispensing these graces to Elizabeth. Did the graces originate from Mary? No, they obviously came from Jesus. However, He chose to have Mary make the journey and use her voice to deliver them. Why? Because He wants us to realize that she is important!

5. Jesus Christ Is The Sole Mediator Between God And Man - Now, this doesn’t make sense. How does this help to support the Catholic position? This is why we Catholics “have it all wrong”, isn’t it? Sorry if I’m bursting anyone’s bubble, but Catholics absolutely believe that Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) clearly states this belief:

Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. (CCC 2634)

This Catholic teaching is supported by the following Bible passage:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, that doesn’t preclude others (including Mary) from being involved in a subordinate mediation, or intercession. Saint Paul, who made the above statement, is obviously aware of that fact since he several times urges his readers to pray for each other (Romans 1:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:25, 1 Timothy 2:1). The Catechism refers to this type of intercession as being a “participation in the intercession of Christ” (CCC 2635) and is put into practice each time we pray for one another. Asking Mary to intercede for us in no way takes away from Jesus’ role as mediator between God and men.

While I’m not naive enough to think that listing these 5 facts will render me immune from further accusations of “Mary worship”, I do think that they will have an effect if looked at with an open mind. Sacred Scripture does not contain a lot of words about Mary, but what’s there is powerful. Theologians have spent 2,000 years studying her Biblical appearances and will continue to do so. We can learn much by studying Mary’s role as documented in the pages of the Bible. If anyone wants to accuse me of being a “Mary worshiper”, I ask you to first look at these 5 facts. If you still want to point a finger, you’ll need to ignore these factual statements…

because accepting them will seriously undermine your credibility!



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; blessedvirginmary; catholic
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To: what's up
Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

Click here for more guidelines to the Religion Forum.

41 posted on 07/03/2012 8:17:00 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Salvation
1. God Sent The Savior Through Mary – I list this one first because it’s really tough to downplay Mary’s importance while acknowledging that the long awaiting Messiah came to earth by being born of a woman…and that woman was Mary. Out of all the ways that Jesus could have come to earth, why was Mary chosen? If Mary was important to God, shouldn’t she mean something to us?

This also goes along with Mary being without sin.

We are told in the Bible that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19-20). Mary was the temple by which Jesus Christ entered this world. Therefore Mary had to be filled with sanctifying grace and without sin. If she had been with sin, that would mean that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, entered into this world by way of an unclean temple. This is not possible, as Jesus Christ was Divine (as well as having a human nature). If Jesus had been just a human being (and without divinity), then the belief that Mary was without sin would be wrong.

42 posted on 07/03/2012 8:26:17 PM PDT by mtg
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To: Boogieman
I agree with every one of your points. The last one you made about Catholics accepting what they are told to believe really is the most critical one. That the Catholic "apologist" author of this thread even appeals to a cursory use of Scripture at all is only to try to assuage those who rely upon the Bible to know what are to be held as tenets of the faith. As has been demonstrated repeatedly on these Religion Forum discussions, most Catholics will use the authority of the Catholic Church as their "fallback" argument when they have been shown Scripture does not support the views they argue for the most.

Those who do not agree with Catholic views about Mary do not, contrary to what some want everyone to think, disrespect nor dishonor the mother of Jesus Christ. Instead, we see her as a model disciple of Christ whose faith was tested and who, through the grace of God, was able to endure those trials and remain a solid witness to the truth. Her kind of faith, through the SAME grace of God, is available to us all if we would only believe, trust and surrender to the will of Almighty God.

43 posted on 07/03/2012 8:27:19 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Salvation
No, I wasn't trying to read your mind. I was basing my judgment about your thought process on what you had stated.

Since this seems to not be accepted I'll put it another way:

What you have expressed contains fuzzy logic.

44 posted on 07/03/2012 8:38:44 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up
If there's a subordinate mediator also, then there is no sole mediator.

Sole means only.

Quaker Oats is the sole source of Cap'n Crunch but I get mine from the super market.

45 posted on 07/03/2012 8:39:44 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: daniel1212

tl;dr


46 posted on 07/03/2012 8:45:58 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Romney scares me. Obama is the freaking nightmare that is so bad you are afraid to go back to sleep)
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To: what's up; Religion Moderator

You are still trying to read my mind.

(If you check the Religion Moderator’s rules you would have found out that using the word “you” in a post usually makes it personal.

Perhaps a question would be better at times.

I can ask you “Why do you think my logic is fuzzy?” and it’s OK.


47 posted on 07/03/2012 8:46:54 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Petrosius

Quaker has allowed retail outlets to be a source of their product for consumers.


48 posted on 07/03/2012 8:47:38 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Salvation
using the word “you” in a post usually makes it personal

Not to belabor anything, but that would mean post #18 is personal.

49 posted on 07/03/2012 8:53:41 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up; Salvation
Statements worded as questions - such as post 18 - are rarely "making it personal."

For instance, "Are you a heretic?" is not making it personal. But "You are a heretic." is making it personal.

Also, "What you have expressed contains fuzzy logic." is not "making it personal" because it expresses the poster's mind instead of reading the other guy's mind.

It is equivalent to saying "I think your statement contains fuzzy logic."

50 posted on 07/03/2012 9:00:55 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Salvation
Perhaps a question would be better at times.

I had no question to ask.

Rather, I had an observation about your statement which was not logical.

51 posted on 07/03/2012 9:06:54 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Religion Moderator
For instance, "Are you a heretic?" is not making it personal

Well, I'll have to take your word for it on that one LOL.

52 posted on 07/03/2012 9:08:31 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Heart-Rest; James Mott
Your reasoning obviously rests on clearly fallacious logic (applying attributes you perceive in part of a group to the entire group). By using precisely that same kind of logic, you would have to apply the faults and evils you see in Judas Iscariot to Jesus Christ and his other apostles and followers, as they were all part of the same group. That kind of claim is plainly based on fallacious reasoning, and is simply false. (Please remember that all falsehoods come ultimately from the father of all lies.)

The fallacious reasoning is in concluding that LEADERS of an organization do NOT represent that group. Judas Iscariot was a follower of Jesus Christ and an apostle in the early stages of the ministry, had he not killed himself, do you seriously believe he would have been allowed to remain an Apostle after what he had done? People who are in leadership positions within a ministry, rightfully DO present a face of that ministry. Any organization that winks at wrong doing among its clergy - as the Roman Catholic Church has done over the centuries - demonstrates a moral failure within the ranks that are SUPPOSED to be examples of holy living. Can sinners be found in any church? Yes, we have ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but we are called to consider ourselves dead to sin and a man or woman of God is to be an example of victorious living and, if they continue in unrepentant gross sin, they should be expelled from the fellowship and most certainly from leadership positions.

The examples given in the link show leaders of the Catholic Church in high positions who either participated in criminal immorality or did nothing to stop it from happening within their jurisdictions. We are not talking about minor faults common to all humans but ongoing, criminal abuse of children that the majority of nonreligious people wouldn't dream of committing. That is far from the "we are all sinners" excuse so many people toss out. Is this the ONLY face of Catholicism? Of course not, but it cannot and should not be ignored and swept under the rug. It is an indication of a serious failure to be steadfast and of keeping the name of our Savior above reproach. It is a responsibility we ALL share - not just our leaders - and we are all put to open shame.

53 posted on 07/03/2012 9:11:16 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: daniel1212
Great material--I'll use it in my soul winning.

Blasphemous.

54 posted on 07/03/2012 9:15:16 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: nonsporting

**Blasphemous**

Anyone who ridicules these five quotes from the Bible in a negative way against Jesus Christ and against the Blessed Virgin Mary will have to answeer for their blasphemy. Indeed.


55 posted on 07/03/2012 9:18:44 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Should be interesting.

May I ask what is your intention for posting this?

56 posted on 07/03/2012 9:20:52 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; Petrosius
“How was Saul able to call Samuel through the witch of Endor? “

God doesn’t want us accessing departed souls through witches.

Not only that but Samuel was pretty ticked off about being disturbed - NOT the kind of attitude expected of one who is "supposed" to be available 24/7 for "intercession". Also, Saul lost his kingdom and, eventually, his life for this disobedient act. Going to the dead was against God's command - one He NEVER rescinded.

57 posted on 07/03/2012 9:39:22 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Saul was using a witch to communicate with a spirit. This is quite different than asking someone to pray to God for you. The point remains that the dead can hear our prayers.


58 posted on 07/03/2012 9:48:04 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

“How was Saul able to call Samuel through the witch of Endor?”


He didn’t. It was a “familiar spirit,” a demon posing as Saul.
Note this scripture:

1Sa_28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

“Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?” The implications are blasphemous, as if a wicked human being can call up saints who are resting in the bosom of Abraham at will.

To use this as proof of Catholic theology is.... well, actually, it makes perfect sense, as praying to the dead, who cannot possibly hear all these millions of prayers every day without being omnipresent and omniscient, is also an act of blasphemy.


59 posted on 07/03/2012 9:51:58 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: Salvation

“Elijah and Moses, who had died, conversed with Jesus at the Transfiguration.”


Elijah, technically, was carried off into heaven. Whatever the case, they were both physically there with Jesus, and Jesus was not praying to them. One would think that if the Catholic dogma was true, Jesus would be praying TO them rather than having them appear in person.


60 posted on 07/03/2012 9:54:28 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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