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To: Alamo-Girl; Mad Dawg; aruanan; wmfights; TXnMA; stpio
I find myself in disagreement both with the above article and the critics of philosophical dualism on both Scriptural grounds and the grounds of mathematics and physics.

I also disagree, on precisely the grounds you name.

It seems to me that the created universe is shot through with "dualisms," the most significant represented by man himself, who was created "dualistically" as a synergistic enterprise of both body (organized matter) and soul (spirit).

Dualism is only a problem if one is chained to Aristotle's Third Law, the Law of the Excluded Middle. Under this law, there are only two possible answers to any question: True or False.

Which in the present case means that either the premillenialists or the amillenialists are "right." The Third Law forces us to choose: For only ONE of these views can be "true." Which means the other is "false."

But I think BOTH are "true" as far as they go.

Quantum theory has introduced a third possibility: Entities thought to be in irreconcilable opposition to one another are actually, naturally complementarities: They need one another in order to describe the fulness of possibilities playing out in the Creation. The observer chooses to see one or the other, because of the limitations of the human mind. But because the observer may choose to focus on "body" doesn't render "spirit" a nullity. It is only held in abeyance in the particular observation.

The point is, as Niels Bohr pointed out, particle and wave are different views of the same system. The observer chooses which of the dynamical partners he wishes to observe. Focusing on one does not extinguish the other; it only holds the other partner in abeyance for the duration of the observation.

Thus the Law of the Excluded Middle — so cherished in science (which is primed to answer true/false questions)— is the wrong tool for understanding such dynamics.

It's not a question of which is "right" and which is "wrong." It's a question of BOTH being right.

And thank God for that! For how could we imagine a man who is "all body and no soul," or vice versa? God created man as a dynamic, synergistic compendium of BOTH body and spirit.

And the Incarnation of Christ should remove all doubt on that question.

My favorite statement extracted from the posted article was Culver's: “I find myself now, after a long life of reflecting on the biblical materials, very reluctant to say much about the eternity to come. It seems presumptuous to do so.”

Presumptuous, indeed! As if any finite human mind can compass the unlimited (infinite) Mind of God, and compress such findings into human language and call it "Truth."

But of course, I am also keenly aware that what man most wants and needs is "certainty," especially about his post-death future. But the fact is, this is precisely the sort of information he cannot have so long as he dwells in a mortal body.

And that is where pure Faith can save us.

Just some thoughts, dearest sister in Christ! Thank you ever so much for your outstanding essay/post!

p.s.: I would so much love to explore another "false dichotomy": The much bruited about "war" between Plato and Aristotle. [Aided and abetted by Ayn Rand in recent times.] The ONLY difference between these two guys, when you boil it all down, is one said that "form" was transcendent to the body, while the other said that "form" was immanent to the body. (E.g., DNA. So Aristotle was right. Or was he? For he leaves unanswered the question: "Whence came the DNA?" What is the Source of ITS order?)

But it seems Plato and Aristotle mainly agreed about just about everything else. Which I suppose might be the result of a 27-year friendship and collaboration between the two men....

26 posted on 07/25/2012 5:41:35 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
Y'all! Not counting Hegel and Heidegger -- okay, and a few popes -- I haven't read anybody who wrote after the 14th century! And I'm working backwards! After I get done enjoying Ephrem the Syrian I'm thinking of Boethius.

I want to say (whether rightly or wrongly I don't know) that the problem of monotheism is theological, spiritual, intellectual, and psychological (since our psyches are fallen, after all.) So it's bound, as I see it, to show up in heresies and errors.

So, despite the disparaging remarks of this writer, I admire Plotinus because he stuck to his neo-Platonism with rigor and contended with dualistic gnosticism, pagan philosopher though he was.

It always strikes me as funny that the colors of my order are black and white, but Dominicans are very refined and nice in their perceptions of shades of gray.

I like to say (with an eye to Chinese Buddhism) about humankind and creation, "Not good, not bad, both good and bad, neither good nor bad ...but FALLEN -- but in their origin and destiny (as offered, though some will despise it) very good, as God himself said."

27 posted on 07/25/2012 8:20:07 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Depone serpentem et ab veneno gradere.)
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To: betty boop; Mad Dawg; aruanan; wmfights; TXnMA; stpio
Thank you oh so very much for your outstanding essay-post, dearest sister in Christ!

Truly, we mere mortals get caught up all the time with false dichotomies.

You mentioned wave-particle duality as the classic example in physics. Excellent choice!

And theology is not exempt either, as in the predestination v free will debates - as if God could not do both. (And I do hope not to derail the conversation with that remark.)

Indeed, most people I believe would acknowledge that a man is greater than the sum of his parts. While we are cutting the man down into his components, he dies. And we cannot put him back together again.

I would also love to see a discussion on the great Plato v Aristotle debate on forms. I think it would add a lot to the discussion of dualism.

Plato, for instance, would have said that pi exists and the geometer came along and found it. Aristotle, on the other hand, would say the geometer created pi to describe what he saw.

I am very Platonist in my math and physics.

Indeed, I aver the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences" (Wigner) is like God's copyright notice on the cosmos.

God's Name is I AM.

28 posted on 07/25/2012 8:54:04 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl
Dear Sister in Christ, thank you for inviting me to this "end times" thread! But... As you are aware, my mind, at present, is focused on the opposite end of our time scale. ;-)

I did prepare a lengthy response to a number of points that have been made on this thread, but, upon review, I found it to be slanted toward "creation things"... Slanted so much so, that it appeared to me to be akin to an apparent attempt at "thread hijacking" -- like another FReeper's comment to which I recently objected on another thread.

So... rather than be accused of "attempted hijacking" (or, at least, being "non sequitur", I will forward the comment (still HTML-encoded) to you via FReepMail.

Thank you again for the invitation to this thread, but, for the present, my attention is on other things...

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I AM" created ("ex nihilo") all, designed and formed ("made") all, and knows/sees/sustains all!! To HIM be the glory!

42 posted on 07/27/2012 12:35:50 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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