My Second Week in Provo [Witnessing to Mormons to how we are 'worthy' only in Christ]

Mark Cares ^ | Aug. 10, 2012 | Mark Cares

[Colofornian]

We are wrapping up our second and final week in Provo. Close to 50 people joined us as we went door to door testifying to our perfection in Christ. We reached thousands of homes and had hundreds of good conversations. Dozens of people expressed interest in our message and thanked us (sometimes with tears) for telling them that Jesus had done everything for them to be worthy and acceptable to God. A surprising number of people gave us their contact information so that we can continue the conversation in the weeks and months ahead.

We found it interesting how varied were the initial responses to our message. Some immediately stated that they believed that they had to keep the commandments to be worthy while others first responded by saying that they believed like we did. It was only after we got deeper into the conversation did they acknowledge differences. Most surprising was how so many agreed that they themselves or their close friends were very stressed out by their striving to be worthy. More than one person just pointed to themselves when we brought that topic up.

Yes, we did meet some people who were angry at us because of our message. But they were few and far between. It was much more common for us to meet somebody who wanted to talk to us and learn more about our beliefs.

It is my prayer that the Holy Spirit will cause the thousands of seeds we sowed in Provo the last two weeks to blossom into the saving faith that trusts solely in Jesus’ works for acceptance by God.

[Colofornian]

From the article: We are wrapping up our second and final week in Provo. Close to 50 people joined us as we went door to door testifying to our perfection in Christ. We reached thousands of homes and had hundreds of good conversations. Dozens of people expressed interest in our message and thanked us (sometimes with tears) for telling them that Jesus had done everything for them to be worthy and acceptable to God. A surprising number of people gave us their contact information so that we can continue the conversation in the weeks and months ahead...Some immediately stated that they believed that they had to keep the commandments to be worthy while others first responded by saying that they believed like we did. It was only after we got deeper into the conversation did they acknowledge differences. Most surprising was how so many agreed that they themselves or their close friends were very stressed out by their striving to be worthy. More than one person just pointed to themselves when we brought that topic up. Yes, we did meet some people who were angry at us because of our message. But they were few and far between.

So...Evangelicals turn the tables and ring Provo doorbells. Utah County, where Provo is located, is up to 85% Lds.

[Colofornian]

From the blog: Dozens of people expressed interest in our message and thanked us (sometimes with tears) for telling them that Jesus had done everything for them to be worthy and acceptable to God...We found it interesting how varied were the initial responses to our message. Some immediately stated that they believed that they had to keep the commandments to be worthy while others first responded by saying that they believed like we did. It was only after we got deeper into the conversation did they acknowledge differences. Most surprising was how so many agreed that they themselves or their close friends were very stressed out by their striving to be worthy. More than one person just pointed to themselves when we brought that topic up.

According to Mormon writings, what makes you "worthy?" Your perfection (3 Nephi 12:48; Mt. 5:48)

[Whereas, in contrast, a good definition of a "Christian" is someone already perfect in the Father's eyes thru Jesus sacrificial death (Heb. 10:14) -- where His perfect righteousness is substituted for our imperfect righteousness. (1 Cor. 1:30). Heb. 10:14 ...because by one sacrifice HE has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.]

Just to be sure, I looked up "worthiness" (a key Lds concept) in the 1977 "Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" published by church-owned Deseret Publishers.

I found verses like Doctrine & Covenants 59:4: "And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time--they that are faithful and diligent before me."

"Commandments not a few"? -- sounds like a long checklist to me.

I then looked at the 1979 "Topical Guide" in the Lds version of its KJV -- and turned to the "worthiness" entry there: It tells me right up top its related to the concept of "qualifying for" & then proceeds to verses like D&C 31:5: "Therefore, thrust in your sickle with all your soul, and your sins are forgiven you, and you shall be laden with sheaves upon your back, for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Wherefore, your family shall live."

Ah. There it is: The Mormon "strategy." Don't "trust" for your salvation, "thrust in your sickle"

So it sounds like the Mormon god wants plenty of soul labor -- paid labor -- spiritual hirelings -- earned labor for salvation. No free gifts here. No grace here. Just follow the rules, ma'am.

Indeed, the LDS are the "rules oriented" ones: The purity and perfection we seek is unattainable without this subjection of unworthy, ungodlike urges and the corresponding encouragement of their opposites. We certainly cannot expect the rules to be easier for us than for the Son of God... (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 28)

Just look @ all the "rule extensions" Lds have imposed upon their followers in order to make it to the highest degree of afterlife:
(1) You have to be obedient to all the commandments & ordinances of the Mormon god
(2) You have to tithe -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"
(3) You have to obey the "Word of Wisdom" -- not drink coffee, etc.
(4) You have to get married -- sorry, no never-married single people allowed {For more on this, see: The Latter-day Saint Concept of Marriage [Unmarrieds 'not whole...complete' - per Mitt's profs]}
(5) You have to have as many children as possible
(6) You have to perform temple work for the dead
(7) You have to perform endowments essential for this highest degree of salvation
(8) You have to be a member of the right church (Lds)
(9) You have to receive & perform the rites and ordinances established by that church
(10)You have to have Joseph Smith's consent to enter into your highest afterlife

That is 19th-20th-21st century legalism!

The door-to-door emphasis was to focus on the true Gospel where "the concept of free and full forgiveness through Christ" rather than the "earned forgiveness taught in Mormonism."

[RIghtwardHo]

Interesting. Thanks so much for the report!

[Colofornian]

From the blog: ome immediately stated that they believed that they had to keep the commandments to be worthy...

Mormons think of grace as primarily future-tense due to Book of Mormon passages like 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32...as mentioned in a previous post...it's like some after-burner will kick in to both "save" the Mormon and lead them to perfection.

The apostle Paul destroyed that nonsense:

...the gospel, by the power of God who has saved us and called us to a holy life—NOT because of anything WE have done BUT because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time... (2 Tim. 1:8-9)

The reality?
#1 We're saved by the character of graciousness exhibited by God as exercised in His Son, Jesus Christ; not the character of man.
#2 And to pre-empt complete boasting on man's part, 'twas done before the clocked ticked once. (That's why the apostle Paul said that if “works” served as man's way to God, WE could boast about how WE “worked” our way into God's presence – see Ephesians 2:8-9)

Think of all this w/this illustration:

Parental "grace" or "favor" extended by adopted parents is "grace" extended to all they adopt, right?

But say you adopted a 12 yo boy who no matter what "pure gift" you gave to him @ his birthday or Christmas time, he would absolutely insist that he "work" for it..."pay you back" for it...and even eventually billed himself for "room and board" during his teen years to "pay you back" for that, too...

Believe me, such a 'tude exhibited by the "pay-back boy" would get old soon enough. How many times would the father say to Himself, "You know this boy can never pay back how I reached into the darkest part of the world to rescue him; yet he thinks he can 'earn' his way into sonship." At some point, this legalism is going to become "offensive" to a Gracious Father -- just like it would if your adopted son could never simply "receive" gifts from you.

Bottom line: Does the above describe a grace-filled father-son relationship?; or is that a legalistic tit-for-tat campaign to "prove" himself "worthy" as if he was a mere "house tenant" -- instead of acting like a true adopted son?

The apostle Paul also made it clear to the Galatians that they could nullify grace. Consider these three passages he wrote to them:

Galatians 2:21:
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! [My note: If we de-magnify God's grace, we set it apart...and belittle the cross of Christ, which the Mormons don't honor, anyway]

Galatians 3:1-3: 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Galatians 5:4: You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. [Example of grace nullification]

The apostle Paul also told the Romans – 11:5-6: 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then IT CANNOT BE BASED ON WORKS; IF IT WERE, GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE.

Simply put: Grace is an unearned, undeserved, unmerited gift!

#1 8 For it is BY GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH—and this is NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT God— 9 NOT by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)

#2 Works nullify grace! ...at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it CANNOT be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:5-6; cf. Gal. 2:15-16 -- justified by faith in Christ; not works of the law)

#3 We didn't qualify for eternal life; No, He qualified us: ...giving joyful thanks to the Father, who HAS qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. (Col. 1:12) [Do you see the PAST tense there -- "HAS qualified you" -- you seem to neglect too much of God's past tense actions & lean too heavily ONLY on either a present or future tense focus].

#4 Even considering future tense...what does Paul say? ...being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phil. 1:6)

[who_would_fardels_bear]

Great work.

Bring religious pluralism to Utah which will lead to political and social pluralism which will result in another solid blue state for the Democrats.

Whoopee!

[Letmarch75]

In all this I recall:
“For He[God]hath made Him[Jesus]to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Also: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

[roylene]

So actually bringing Jesus Christ to Mormons in Utah will make them all vote for democrats?
Sorry that makes no sense at all, is that what you meant to say?

[greyfoxx39]

Bring religious pluralism to Utah

OH NOES! Proselytize in UTAH???

We find it hilarious that you mormonism defenders get your underwear in a knot about the posting of factual mormon doctrine from mormon sources by a few dozen FReepers at the same time that your leaders are bragging about the following:

We are grateful for the 52,225 full-time missionaries serving in more than 150 countries.16 The sun never sets on righteous missionaries testifying of the Savior mormon church. Think of the spiritual power of 52,000 missionaries, endowed with the Spirit of the Lord Joseph Smith, boldly declaring that there is “no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come … , only in and through the name of Christ. mormon church temple rituals

"My young brethren of the priesthood, I testify of the majesty, but most of all, of the certainty of this magnificent event. The Savior lives. He will return to the earth (the Second Coming) . And whether on this side of the veil or the other, you and I will rejoice in His coming and thank the Lord that He sent us to earth at this time to fulfill our sacred duty of helping prepare the world for His return the mormon theocracy

."other people, who may not yield full obedience to his laws, nor be fully instructed in his covenants, will, nevertheless, have to yield full obedience to his government. For it will be the reign of God upon the earth, and he will enforce his laws, and command that obedience from the nations of the world which is legitimately his right” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor [2001], 225).

Preparing the World for the Second Coming-LDS.org, April 2011

Anyone who believes that Romney isn't fully immersed in this doctrine and the Law of Consecration is a fool: The Law of Consecration is considered by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be a "celestial law." That is, people who are living lives dedicated to the service of God, such that at judgment they would be assigned to the Celestial Kingdom, should be able and expected to live the Law of Consecration. The Law of Consecration is that, if necessary or requested, a person would give everything he has for the building up of the Kingdom of God on Earth. He would be willing to wholeheartedly give of his time, talents, and resources. Thus, the person is "consecrating" all his personal resources to the Lord.

“The law of consecration,” said Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “is that we consecrate our time, our talents, and our money and property to the cause of the Church; such are to be available to the extent they are needed to further the Lord’s interests on earth.” Mormon Temple Covenants

[dragonblustar]

So...Evangelicals turn the tables and ring Provo doorbells.

This is good to hear. I hope it continues.

[Brad from Tennessee]

[Yes, we did meet some people who were angry at us because of our message. But they were few and far between. It was much more common for us to meet somebody who wanted to talk to us and learn more about our beliefs.]

This says something pretty positive about most Mormons.

[driftless2]

Isn’t there a religion thread? Talk about saving souls on that one. Save this forum for serious news please.

[AnalogReigns]

Bring religious pluralism to Utah which will lead to political and social pluralism which will result in another solid blue state for the Democrats.

A thoughtless remark.

Find me states with the highest percentage of evangelical Christians, and I'll show you a CONSERVATIVE state.

Besides that, even if what you wrote were true, you expect Christians to allow people to GO TO HELL, just to help the POLITICS of the red states????

[AnalogReigns]

I would think among LDS you may find persons a lot more receptive to door-to-door evangelism, than with the general population. After all, I’m sure a number of them as young people, were required to spend 2 years going door-to-door themselves.

(no wonder Mormons are good salesmen...)

[colorcountry]

I believe who_would_fardels_bear is Mormon. Many Mormons feel threatened when Christians proselyte to them, but are totally fine with their own attempts at converting Christians to Mormonism.

Don’t ask me why, it is cognitive dissonance at its finest

[presently no screen name]

Bring religious pluralism to Utah

There is ONLY ONE God and ONE Gospel.

which will result in another solid blue state for the Democrats.

"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?” is a question Jesus asked 2,000 years ago.

[greyfoxx39]

I would think among LDS you may find persons a lot more receptive to door-to-door evangelism, than with the general population.

Especially since their "creed" states

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

[presently no screen name]

This says something pretty positive about most Mormons.

They are hungry for TRUTH.

[reaganaut]

Check the right hand corner, this IS in the Religion Forum.

/eyeroll

[Colofornian]

This says something pretty positive about most Mormons.

(Actually, you're right...I've met a LOT of Mormons willing to talk about spiritual things and the Bible...unlike a LOT of non-Mormon, free-willing independent FREEPERs who just yell "hate" or "bigot" and disrupt/hijack the conversation about these things...We've had a LOT of great discussions with Mormons on FR thru the years)

[presently no screen name]

Talk about saving souls on that one. Save this forum for serious news please.

If you don't take eternity serious, you have your priorities screwed. 50 or 70 or 90 yrs vs. eternity. A 3rd grader would know what is more important. So there is no 'right place' but EVERYPLACE 24/7, 365 - never stop bringing the Gospel to the lost as if their life depended on it - because it does!! .