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Posted on 11/02/2012 4:50:22 AM PDT by NYer
Ping!
;-\
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Amen I say to you, this day you shall be with me in Paradise.
amazing the utter inability of folks to understand the biblical roots of purgatory....
the usual ‘why isnt the word mentioned’ (of course, the word ‘bible’, or words ‘scripture alone’, or ‘faith alone’ are nvr mentioned, nor is ‘trinity’, but im sure they can make excuses for that...
thank goodness we catholics have the historical church, the word of God and his Sacred Tradition.
It all comes together as one when you look at it that way.....
amazing the utter inability of folks to understand the biblical roots of purgatory....
the usual ‘why isnt the word mentioned’ (of course, the word ‘bible’, or words ‘scripture alone’, or ‘faith alone’ are nvr mentioned, nor is ‘trinity’, but im sure they can make excuses for that...)
thank goodness we catholics have the historical church, the word of God and his Sacred Tradition.
It all comes together as one when you look at it that way.....
You wrote:
“If “Purgatory” is real, why isn’t it mentioned specifically in the Bible?”
Why isn’t the Trinity specifically mentioned? Why isn’t the Bible specifically mentioned in the Bible? Why aren’t we specifically told in the Bible that Matthew wrote a gospel?
“If “Purgatory”, the idea that man can finally be made perfect, is real ... then why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins?”
(sigh) You do realize that Jesus’ death is what powers Purgatory, right? Thus, your question mnakes no sense. Purgatory could not exist without Jesus’ death on the cross.
“I suggest you go back and re-read Ephesians 1 to understand God’s plan. Man cannot save himself.”
I suggest you learn what Purgatory is before you post about it. Clearly, from your questions and suggestion, you do not know what it is.
“May God illuminate our hearts and minds to His true Word.”
May God teach you enough humility to look up what a doctrine actually is before you start posting against it on the internet. That would make you not only more knowledgable, but less foolish looking.
After years of working to heal and release earthbound spirits that no longer have a physical body, I am convinced that purgatory is right here.
Thanks for posting this.
Many people are confused about what it is and think it is a sleeping period before being resurrected.
I have a friend who is Catholic, I am not, and I have attempted to explain this many times. For some reason, she is stuck on this head thought that as a Baptist(Protestant) we are completely different.
I of course see us all as part of the larger part of the body of Christ and since I was young and having gone to missionary school I probably read and understood quite a bit more of Biblical intention than many.
Not that I am any thing close to a theologian.
I am going to forward this to her and since it’s fairly concise perhaps it will be informative.
It is interesting that the Mormons have a similar process in their belief system but, it extends to all who are dead and will be given the opportunity to convert to Mormonism. Also interesting in that they have a “prayers for the dead” ritual which makes the unliving Mormons.
However, the short answer to your objection is that nobody in purgatory is "saving themselves" because all of them are already saved. Only saved people even get to purgatory. Purgatory is where the elect of God complete their sanctification before entering His presence.
I understand your point, but respectfully disagree.
So far as things being specifically mentioned in the Bible, you may want to consider Deuteronomy 22:13-28.
Many years ago, I worked for an international airline and my manager was a Mormon. Having been educated in catholic schools for 12 years, I thought I knew my faith until he challenged me on certain doctrines. What riled me up, however, was the Mormon church's plan to amass the birth records of every human being so they could baptize them in the Mormon church.
Several weeks ago, while listening to one of the readings in my catholic church, I was taken aback to hear this practice of baptizing the dead, goes back to the very early church. See 1 Corinthians 15:29. Perhaps that is the genesis of the Mormon practice.
That's because there is no such thing as biblical roots of purgatory...It's an invention of your religion...
What is the Promise which points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus Made the promise in Matt 5:48: You, Therefore, must be perfect as you Heavenly Father is perfect.
That's not at all what Jesus said...Your religion always has to pervert scripture to try to validate it's traditions...
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
That's what the scripture 'really' says...There no promise there...There's no promise that Jesus was giving...It's a command...
It's a command for you and me to do something, not a promise...Surely anyone who would bother to look at the actual scripture could see that...
St. Paul says, May God who has begun a good work in you bring it to completion. (Phil 1:6). Hence, If I were to die today, Jesus would need to complete a work that he has begun in me.
More bible perversion...This is the real verse...
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Nothing at all about completing a good work...The verse says Jesus began the good work and He will perform the good work until Jesus Christ shows up...
The entire article is a perversion of the scriptures to try to validate another false teaching of the Catholic religion...
Catholic Theology has always taken God seriously on his promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect. The righteousness is Jesus’ righteousness, but it actually transforms us and changes us completely in the way that St. Catherine describes above. It is a real righteousness, not merely imputed, not merely declared of us by inference. It is not an alien justice, but a personal justice, by the grace of God.
There is no way either you or I will attain our own righteousness...The best righteousness you will ever attain is a garbage heap to God...
The only righteousness we have is what Jesus gave to us, which is correctly defined as 'imputed'...We have no righteousness of our own...It's a free, undeserved gift...
There is no purgatory...
When we die, it's over...Our bodies as living Christians are corrupt, but our souls have been made perfect...If your soul isn't perfect in God's eyes when your body falls off of it, your soul ain't going up...
You wrote:
“Why isn’t the Trinity specifically mentioned? Why isn’t the Bible specifically mentioned in the Bible? Why aren’t we specifically told in the Bible that Matthew wrote a gospel?”
You’re making a logical fallacy - false comparison. You’re attempting to equate non-Doctrinal terms with a Doctrinal term. While the Trinity (as a doctrine) is not called “the Trinity” in scripture, we see its definition over and over again in the term “Godhead” (Acts 17, Romans 1, Col 2). We see Jesus Christ telling his disciples to baptise them “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost” (Mat 28:19-20). What we do not see is any reference, directly, to any ‘supernatural realm’ called Purgatory. Your other two rhetorical questions fail to substantiate your point by the same faulty reasoning.
“(sigh) You do realize that Jesus’ death is what powers Purgatory, right? Thus, your question mnakes (sic) no sense. Purgatory could not exist without Jesus’ death on the cross.”
(sigh) You do realize that Jesus’ death and resurrection is what NEGATES THE POSSIBILITY of “Purgatory”, right?
‘Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;’ (2 Cor 3:5)
‘And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.’ (2 Cor 12:9)
...and...
‘And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:’ (Hebrews 9:27) Note that it doesn’t say, ‘after this, the Purgatory’ or anything like it.
If you really want to get into it, look at the theological reasons behind why God commanded the Old Testament Israelites to make sacrifices for their sins. They purified themselves, came to the high priest, confessed their sins, made their sacrifice, and went their way. They did NOT enter into a special area or ritual to then flense themselves or otherwise try to add anything to the atonement process. When Christ died on the cross, He became our sacrifice. We either accept that, or we do not. Christ, while He was dying for my sins and yours, uttered seven recorded statements. The last one was, “It is finished” (John 19:30), and not “I’m done here, but you still need to atone for your sins to be made perfect.”
This is, essentially, the same old ‘Catholic vs. other Christian beliefs’ argument that has existed since the the years after Christ’s ascension and the church began to spread. Christ is either God (i.e. part of the triune Godhead) or He is not. Therefore, His death was either all-sufficient, or it was not. Man, however, keeps wanting to add to this - hence the idea of Purgatory, because salvation by the remission of sins apparently doesn’t clean us up enough to stand before a Holy God. Guess what? NOTHING that we attempt to do, no “pennance”, no amount of time to correct our wrongs, no matter how sorry we are ... nothing can ever be enough to get us to a point where our righteousness is enough to stand in God’s presence. It is ONLY through Christ that we can accomplish this. Christ alone.
“I suggest you learn what Purgatory is before you post about it. Clearly, from your questions and suggestion, you do not know what it is.”
Clearly, I know all about what Purgatory is and what it isn’t. I know that it is an idea concocted by man, and I know that there is no scriptural basis for it.
“May God teach you enough humility to look up what a doctrine actually is before you start posting against it on the internet. That would make you not only more knowledgable, but less foolish looking.”
I pray that God continues to grant me more humility, and also more wisdom. I also pray that He continues to embolden me to confront unBiblical doctrines, and to encourage others to hear what the Bible says without seeking to add to it or to take away from it.
Well, I think it’s saying that if the dead are not raised(not saved through Christ by the time of their death), then why do you baptize the dead?
It’s pointless to baptize the dead. Salvation through Christ is a choice of volition.
If one is dead how can they decide anything.
So, not taking anything away from Mormons but, how does their act have any effect spiritually? It doesn’t.
extremely well-stated. Better than I could have.
Hebrews 10:10 denies the need for Purgatory since Christ’s sacrifice is made ‘once for all’.
My Savior is big enough to destroy all sin without the need for separation from the God who loves me more than anything. I hope yours is too.
Bless your day.
Might I suggest that you look into the differences between Old Testament civil law given to a specific people in a specific time, and which of the theological doctrines were upheld, and which were completed/negated by Christ’s death on the cross?
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