Posted on 11/02/2012 4:50:22 AM PDT by NYer
Have you ever heard of these three categories? Catholics consider them all the time.
Church Triumphant — the Saints in Heaven
Church Suffering — the Souls in Purgatory being purged so that they can be pure when they enter Heaven
Church Militant — that’s us — alive here on earth
no it does not deny anything, it simply states he died once for all....the sin has been forgiven, the eternal damnation has been paid for, however, the soul of the individual still is marred by the stain of sin, despite being forgiven..thus the need for cleansing and purification after death before one can be in the presence of the Lord.
...and thus the need for the protestants to come up with lame reasons to get rid of this book, as luther did....it clearly points to praying for the souls of the dead.
I have a few questions.
Can you do your purgatory here on earth? Could dealing with personal sufferings be that of illness, job loss, grief, etc, be a form of purgatory?
It sure feels like it.
While it is not necessary that a doctrine to directly rest upon explicit statements, yet as with the Trinity, it should be soundly derived from clear texts, and for which the doctrine of purgatory fails, but which supports the doctrine that all true believers go to be with the Lord forever upon departing from this life, as will be shown.
The argument here for purgatory is based upon the premise that Jesus commanded souls to be as perfect as God, quoting Mt 5:48 which states, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect, " (Matthew 5:45) ,” which is in context refers to treating your enemy benevolently. However, this does not teach that the achievement of absolute moral perfection in this life is a perquisite for salvation, and which would require redefining salvation, and is tantamount to placing one under the Law. (Gal. 3:10)
For while salvific faith is one which characteristically effects the “obedience of faith” toward its Object (which faith in any moral authority will do, and which is an overcoming kind of faith, (Rv. 2,3), and grows towards the maturity which is called perfection, (Col. 1:28; 4:12; Ja. 1:4; 3:2; 1Jn. 4:17) and which faith has “great recompense of reward,” (Heb. 10:35), yet Scripture states that believers (being of true faith) are presently saved (Titus 3:5), and positionally perfect (Heb. 10:14) and seated in Heaven. (Eph. 2:6)
Those who lack characteristic practical holiness in the obedience of faith, which (like David) includes repentance when convicted of sin, (1Jn. 1:7-9) but who assent to a different gospel (such as based upon morally earning it: Gal. 5:1-4) or who deny the faith (1Tim. 5:8) by knowingly continuing impenitently in sin, departing from the living God, (Heb. 3:6,12,14; 10:25-39) evidence they have rejected true faith (or never had it) and will be lost if they die in that state, and not go to purgatory.
And in contrast to the Scripture texts that are enlisted in support of the Roman tradition of purgatory which typically either refer to punishment of the lost or chastisement in this life or of loss of rewards when the Lord returns, wherever the NT actually refers to the postmortem existence of believers (which are all called “saints), it places them with the Lord.
The apostle Paul, while he told the Philippians that was he not “already perfect,” (Phil. 3:12) was yet torn by two desires, “to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better ,or to abide in the flesh to minister to the saints. (Phil. 1:23,24)
Likewise he stated to the Corinthians, "We [plural] are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)
In addition, the Thessalonians, which were still undergoing growth in grace toward perfection, were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17)
And while the Corinthian believers were certainly not fully mature, yet the apostle taught that at the Lord's return then that is when they would be like the Lord, (1Cor. 15:49-57) at which appearance is when believers will fully be made perfect. (1Jn. 3:2)
To which is added the contrite confessing criminal on the cross who went to be with the Lord upon his physical death, (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as did Stephen. (Acts 7:59)
And we may be certain that the contrite confessing criminal had not yet attained moral perfection, which is one reason given for purgatory, the other being the need to atone for sins which the believer was not sufficiently chastised for in this life in compensating for them, and thus Rome teaches that such must atone for “in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)
However, what Scripture only reveals growth in grace and overcoming as being realized in this world, with its temptations and trials, (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) where alternatives to submitting to God can be made (suffering itself does not make one mature) and thus it was here that the Lord Himself was made “perfect,” (Heb. 2:10) as in being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)
Moreover, while Christians will be judged for the things they did as a believers, (Rm. 14:10-12; 2Cor. 5:10) as in how they built the church, this occurs after the Lord's return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:21-23; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards and the Lord's disapproval. (1Cor. 13:8ff) And which is contrary to purgatory, which has souls suffering in ongoing torments upon death in order to atone for sins and become perfect.
See here as regards 1 Cor. 3.
Note however that the “official” Roman doctrine of purgatory is ambiguous enough that it is open to much interpretation, so that it even may be taught, albeit inconsistently, that the suffering is for a moment, or is hardly even suffering.
Finally, the reality is that the doctrine of purgatory does not rest upon or require Scriptural substantiation, only that it does not contradict Scripture according to Rome's interpretation, and instead it is a tradition which rests upon Rome infallible declaration of herself as being infallible, while the Eastern Orthodox reject the purgatory of Rome (among other things) based upon their interpretation of Tradition and Scripture.
But for those who are prone to attempt to justify purgatory by Scripture, though that is not their supreme authority, i have engaged in extensive exchange on this, as here, and which little should need to be added.
Not needing explicit support from Scripture is one thing, asserting that purgatory is derived from it based on the premise of required perfection and ambiguous texts, is another (see .
But as your real basis is the authority of Rome, as a RC must hold that the Roman church is the final authority on Truth, rather than Scripture (as man's reasoning is fallible), would tell me upon what your basis is for your assurance that Rome is the one true church rests.
I have not seen you before in the usually debates here, but you should know that Luther was not alone in his rejection of the apocrpha, (read http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Scripture.html#2).
As for using 2Mac. 12:40-45 to support purgatory, this is problematic as those who had offerings made for them were slain due to idolatry, a mortal sin, thus requiring RCAs to ex deny this was why they died, or postulating they may have repented at the last.
Moreover, the New Catholic Answer Bible, as well as my NAB on 12:42-46 states, “The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Mc 7,9. 14. 23. 36)....His belief was similar to, but not quite the same, as the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”
“Not quite the same” is the only “doctrine” that this extra book can support is that of praying to the physically dead (and not to them), not for them to get out of purgatorial suffering and attain moral perfection.
Meanwhile, as shown, the clearest teaching of Scripture is that believers go to be with the Lord upon their demise here, or at the Lord’s return, which ever comes first.
See posts 26, 28.
Hebrews 9:27 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment...
Thank you for an excellent post.
Not true. We are in righteous standing before God.
Jesus NEVER mentions a place of further purification for sins.
Since Catholics hang so much on the direct words of Jesus, perhaps you could tell us where He refers to such an important part of the salvation process.
Why do people believe “Scripture Alone" when the Bible clearly says, the church is the bulwark of the Faith, not Scripture?
Why do people believe “by faith alone” when the Bible clearly says, “not by faith alone”?If that sort of trashing of His Word isn't enough, Purgatory is in Scripture but Luther threw out that portion along with others. So, there is only "Subset Alone" anyway, not really Scripture Alone as those who espouse it portray it since they don't even include all of the Scripture in their Bible.
Where in the subset of Scripture such folks do accept does it say Luther has the authority to throw out portions of Scripture?
Clearly, "Scripture Alone" is exactly the same sort of propaganda distortion as "Pro-Choice", a phrase fashioned to aid in a deliberate deception. It's a lie while based on only a subset of Scripture, and even if applied to the entirety of Scripture would be lie because the proponents contradict direct statements within Scripture whenever they please. They simply imitate Eve and Luther by changing His Word to suit themselves and get on with whatever they want to do. Weather that's eating forbidden fruit, throwing out portions of the Bible, or murdering their own children with contraceptives, they find a way to have Scripture agree with what they want to do.
"Scripture Alone" is the marketing trade name for the worship of "Self Alone", nothing more.
Half blind folks who stagger as they walk due to the immense weight of the huge beam in their own eye, but who claim that Purgatory is a mote in the eye of others, are just pitiful. Such folks are staggering around in their filthy rags claiming that they need only rely on their Self Alone are relying on them Self, not on Jesus Christ for their salvation.
“Soul sleep” is not what Scripture teaches (see #26). but the believers go to be with the Lord, while Paul’s mention of baptism for the dead* (vicarious baptism, which is attested to being practiced by such as the Marcionites in post apostolic times), was likely only in the interest of attesting to belief in the resurrection.
Paul also quoted a pagan philosopher in support of the truth that there is one God, (Acts 17:28) though this does not sanction all that such a pagan may do in worshiping such. And the fact is that the devils attest to the reality that there is one God, for they tremble at the realization of that, (Ja. 2:19) yet demons are wrong. Thus vicarious baptism attests to the resurrection, though the practice does not have Scriptural support.
Yet the Mormonic practice of baptism for the dead is the type of aberration most often seen among those who exalt another authority above Scripture, thus their teachings need not rest upon the weight of Scriptural warrant.
And and the Roman church comes close to supporting vicarious baptism with its infant baptism by proxy faith, but there is no example of anyone being saved or baptized who could fulfil the stated requirements for baptism, that of repentance and faith. (Acts 2:38; 8:36,27) Thus support must be derived upon the unprovable premise that household baptisms included infants, though even there faith is indicated where by any further description is given.
*1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Being Earth bound is one part of the purgatorial experience. Some souls go through that, but there are other ways of being purified while discarnate. Some Earth bound spirits are here voluntarilly, doing voluntary service work. Some are living out the agony of physical cravings and addictions with no physical body to satisfy their cravings.
My wife and I are going through what I believe is a purgatorial experience while still incarnate. The purification process sometimes begins before physical death.
Please see post 25, thank-you.
It astounds me that people fall for that purgatory tripe. If Jesus perfected us by His suffering and death and that was complete how could anyone deny Christ and state we have to yet be perfected?
“My wife and I are going through what I believe is a purgatorial experience while still incarnate. The purification process sometimes begins before physical death.”
That’s how karma works.... it’s a real pisser.
“how could anyone deny Christ and state we have to yet be perfected?”
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble, when you’re perfect in every way....” My brother’s theme song!
Seriously, I wish those who think they are perfect stop bothering those of us who are! sarc!
“how could anyone deny Christ and state we have to yet be perfected?”
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble, when you’re perfect in every way....” My brother’s theme song!
Seriously, I wish those who think they are perfect stop bothering those of us who are! sarc!
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