Posted on 11/16/2012 7:28:39 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
You wrote:
“Excuse me but this entire are is loaded with Catholic Arabs and there has not been an Evangelical presence their until very recently .”
You need to learn how to read. This is a Syrian woman who has been forced out of her homeland and into a neighboring country. She might not have ever exchanged more than a few words with Christians until these Evangelicals showed up. She probably lived - as most Muslims do in the Muslim world - in almost entirely Muslim neighborhoods, schools, businesses, etc. The Churches - when they share the gospel - are at great risk in such places. Evangelicals are not as hampered by that because they treated more as individuals (since they are not considered part of a recognizable Church).
“Catholics Arabs got outnumbered by Islamic Arabs because they did not share the Gospel .”
No. Catholic Arabs only exist because of Arab Muslim conquest. It is so easy for dumb Americans who know so little about history and geography to forget that the very existence of “Arab” Christians means those very people are descendant from non-Arab Christians forcibly arabized over the centuries by invading, occupying and enslaving Muslims. Also, don’t tell me that there aren’t Christians from the historic Churches sharing the gospel. I guess you’ve never watched Fr. Zakaria Botros: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakaria_Botros What Evangelical can claim he is “Islam’s public enemy No. 1”
“Where the Gospel is preached people come to Christ even former Muslims.”
True. And Catholics do preach it. And every year there are Muslims who are converted. http://www.tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/a-muslims-remarkable-conversion-to-catholicism.html Some already know something about the faith: http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=27501 Some are converted in ways no one expects: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/a-muslim-finds-the-catholic-faith-through-geography-and-theology
“Catholics have had a couple thousand years to do this but chose not to .”
No. Muslism only invaded in the 7th century and it was death for Muslims who committed apostasy. But why let actual facts get in the way of your bias right, Lera?
“BTW I know who the pastor is in the article . He is a former Catholic who heard the Gospel in Israel from a Jew.”
No. He heard another gospel from a Christian. No Jew teaches any gospel about Christ. Even “Jews for Jesus” are Christians.
anybody that is a believer in Christ is a saint...do you believe that?
Praying to saints means you’re expecting them to do what only Jesus Christ can do.
Also, no one is in heaven yet as the day of judgement has not come. The dead in Christ are asleep awaiting Christ’s return.
Um. No it doesn't.
"Also, no one is in heaven yet as the day of judgement has not come. The dead in Christ are asleep awaiting Christ’s return."
So Christ was lying in Luke 23:43?
Expand on your explanation that praying to dead people ISN’T expecting them to do what only Christ can do. Saying ‘no it doesn’t’ doesn’t bolster your claim.
Regarding Luke 23:43, there was no punctuation when the Bible was first written and the comma should have been after the word ‘today’...reading...Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.” This makes more sense as the remainder of the Bible supports that no one is in Heaven yet and won’t be until the Day of Judgement. Read below:
1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
See my #57.
"This makes more sense as the remainder of the Bible supports that no one is in Heaven yet and won’t be until the Day of Judgement."
True enough; however, I think it unwise to view things in a strictly temporal context. If eternal life is indeed eternal, it is without beginning and end and transcends all time as we view it. Similarly, where are Enoch and Elijah when the Old Testament tells us they were taken up to Heaven, and you render the unqualified statement that, "no one is in Heaven yet"?
99.9% of us have not been to heaven; read below for clarity.
transcript below:
Caller: Was Enoch really taken into Heaven?
Pastor Doug: Was Enoch taken into Heaven?
Caller: Yes.
Pastor Doug: Well the Bible says, ‘he was not, for God took him’ and we have reason to believe that yes he was taken up into Paradise.
Caller: But, oh what’s confusing for me is that in the Gospel of John 3:13, Jesus said that no one has ever gone into Heaven except the one who came from Heaven, the Son of man.
Pastor Doug: Ok.
Caller: And so my question is how could Enoch be in Heaven, when Jesus said no one has ever gone into Heaven except the Son of man?
Pastor Doug: Well you need to read it in the context. He’s talking to Nicodemus and He’s chiding Nicodemus. He’s saying, ‘Are you a master in Israel, and you know not these things?’ speaking of the New Birth.
And then when Christ goes on to say no one has ascended up into Heaven except Him who came down from Heaven, Christ is saying that He is the only One who has come from Heaven to teach the Truth of God. There have been people – not only Enoch – you’ve got Elijah who went to Heaven in a fiery chariot. You’ve got Moses who was up in Heaven because he appeared to Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration so we don’t need to limit this to an anomaly with Enoch.
But Jesus is emphasizing here, I’m the only One who’s been to Heaven and back, who has been in the presence of the Father and who can explain these things.
The Bible tells us some things that are the norm – unless there’s an exception – an example of this would be when it says, ‘All that are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth’ you’ve read that Scripture?
Caller: Yes.
Pastor Doug: Well obviously it’s not the ones who are already in Heaven, but generally speaking, all that are in the graves. The 99.9% of the people have died and are waiting for the Resurrection.
If you wanted to try and torture this Scripture you could say, ‘Well it says all, but what about Enoch and Elijah?’ The exceptions in the Bible are mentioned as exceptions. See what I’m saying?
Caller: Yes.
Pastor Doug: Generally speaking. No one else has been up to Heaven and back down again. Even Lazarus made no claims during his four days of death about being in Heaven. Ok?
Caller: All right.
Pastor Doug: And incidentally, Moses, Enoch, Elijah, who were taken to Heaven the Bible says, they never came back and talked to men. The only time any man has come back down and talked, it was when Moses and Elijah came and talked to Jesus. So Christ is saying He is the only bridge between Heaven and earth.
Caller: Right.
Pastor Doug: Ok?
Caller: Right.
Pastor Doug: I hope that helps.
Caller: Thanks.
Amazing Facts’ Resource Number: 800-835-6747
Bible Prophecy Truth
Learn the truth about the Bible’s prophecies including the number 666, the mark of the beast, the antichrist, the second coming of Christ, the rapture, the 1000 years, the end of the world, heaven and the new earth, and much more.
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/881/t/Enoch.aspx
You might find this one interesting too.
Putting it in my contacts list now.p>
oh well...I guess indoctrination is more powerful than facts.
You miss my point entirely. I’m sure Pastor Doug is a great guy. Do his words and explanations become any less valid when he dies? Should people stop following his example and forget about him altogether when he dies simply because he died, or should his good works be held up as an example for others? If his soul is indeed eternal, will he cease to be a Christian when he dies? If he doesn’t cease to be a Christian, do you think he’ll continue to pray for this world and his loved ones still in it?
I beleive it’s you missing the point (with all due respect, sincerely): We don’t stop loving the ones that died, or thinking about them or missing them. What we should NOT do is pray to them. That is not Biblical and it’s dangerous. Further, there is no need to pray FOR them. Just as God pointed out about Lazarus(?)—the other one, that wanted people to go warn his family of what hell is like, there is no connection between us and the dead. This is also why the Lazarus that was dead for 4 days knew nothing about the ‘afterlife’ as he was dead; with no memory or recall.
This is the perfect ‘in’ for Satan if he knows we’re vulnerable to talking to the dead, then he responds with familiar signs, tricking us into believing we’re connecting with them. We are to pray to Christ and Christ alone.
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
As CS Lewis wrote, "You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.” While our temporal body may die, eternal souls, by definition, remain very much alive. I don't know about you but frankly, I can use all the prayers I can get, and if those Christians who have departed this world, but still remain very much alive in the Church, wish to pray for me, I'll take it.
My NDE was in 1988. Meningitis, was in quaranteen for a week afterward.
Totally changed my life.
“One would think that you would be so over-whelmed by Christ that trouble to family would be a minimal consideration.”
The problem is that the feeling of being with Christ is so overwhelmingly great that you want to die to be back there and experience it again. I and many others went into a sort of depression after experiencing Jesus and then having the feeling taken away to return here. It is beyond words.
“I met Him in a near death experience too.”
Pull back the memory of the experience as often as you can. You can have that feeling while you are still in a physical body on earth.
I can, you know but at the moment I am in a living aich ee double hockey sticks that I have been stuck in for the past 4 years. More often now I am upset at Him.
“For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
I quote this scripture often. Jokingly I say, “The Messiah must be one heck of a big dude!” There are very important clues in the scripture to understanding scriptures relating to the rapture and Jesus’ statement My Father is in Me and I am in my Father..... And if you are in Me then my Father who is in me is also in you......
This is why Jesus said, “My Father and I are One!”
Let those who have ears understand and learn to know and experience Jesus personally.
“Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:”
That is Peter quoting the OT Prophet Joel. I read that scripture often as it is the only reason IO can do the things I do.. It is done through me, in spite of me!
Where’s it end? Do you talk with your dead grandmother? Do you talk with Adam? Do you talk with George Washington? Do you talk with Martin Luther? Do you talk with Pope John Paul II? Do you talk with Paul the Apostle? Do you talk with Mother Theresa? Do you talk with Jerry Falwell?
And do you expect a response from these dead people, as many might expect a response from the Living Lord Jesus?
I just don’t reason why anyone would try to “pray” (to use your term) or “talk” to those who’ve died, when there are so many living believers who’d be happy to join you in prayer.
I agree with you in part: It is very good to consider the lives of notable Christians, who’ve lived exemplary lives.
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