Posted on 12/25/2012 7:59:39 AM PST by SeekAndFind
And if my faithful dog cannot go to heaven, I don’t want to go either.
You clearly did not expose yourself to any of my links. I hate to reinvent the wheel here. All of your arguments are addressed clearly. All of them. One example, Jesus’ “worm dieth not” comment was a quote from the OT. Check out the context.
Destruction = destruction
It is permanent. It never ends. That which has been destroyed does not come back.
And if my faithful dog cannot go to heaven, I don’t want to go either.
Billy Graham ansered this deftly a few decades ago in a letter in his collumn. A man asked if his dog would be in heaven. Billy responded, and I paraphrase, “if your joy in heaven is dependent on your dog being there, he will be there.”
;-)
He created Hell so that he would have a place for eternal torment, which seems to turn Him on. And did this knowing (because He is all-knowing) that the imperfect creatures He created would end up there.
The bible does not support that. Actually, Ecclesiastes sums up the fate of the “natural man” nicely. You eat and drink and enjoy the fruits of your labor, and then you die.
But the free gift of eternal life is offered to those who would accept and who are written in the book of life. You can turn it down if you so choose, then you do the ecclesiastes thing and die. Other than being resurrected to enable the death of your soul, you will go away forever. as the bible calls it, “death, perish, destruction”. You are no more.
The bible is very clear about this.
Hell was created for the devil and the fallen angels, not for man. The evil in the world is not from God is from Satan and his fallen angels.
The "worm dieth not" is a quote from the NT. The Gospel of Mark is in the New Testament. The context of Jesus' statement is in reference to John question another casting out demons in Jesus' name, even though that individual was not part of their group. Jesus said, "Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us, is on our part." (Mark 9:39,40). Jesus then goes on to discuss what will happen to those who offend believers. Hell is their destination where "the worm dieth not and, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark (9:44, 46, 48)
It is profitable to actually read what the Bible says about hell and eternal punishment. Destruction is NOT annihilation. We know that the lake of fire does not burn up/annihilate those cast in into nothingness, which the annihilate argument. Here is the simple proof:
10* And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)The beast and the false prophet (men) were cast into the lake of fire 1000 years before the devil will be thrown in. They are thrown in BEFORE the millennium (Rev 19:20). The devil is thrown in AFTER the millennium. These two are NOT annihilated.
It is [oxy]moronic to assume that "eternal" combined with "desruction" means that the destruction is not "eternal". Hell is called destruction, but those who are cast in are not annihilated; but rather they will be resurrected before the great white throne of judgment in Revelation 20:11ff). They shall be condemned and cast into the lake of fire (Rev 21:8) where they shall experience eternal consumpation in the fire.
It is wishful thinking to assume that God does not mean it when he says that he will punish the unbeliever for ever in hell and the lake of fire. We cannot imagine a God who would do this. (How unloving we think). Yet we also find it unimaginable that this same God would suffer death himself on the cross to save us from eternal destruction. But he has, thankfully.
With all due respect, the points you make are addressed in the links I posted. It appears you still have not read them.
Also, I said “ Jesus’ ‘worm dieth not’ comment was a quote from the OT. Check out the context.”
Which prompted this response from you: “The “worm dieth not” is a quote from the NT. The Gospel of Mark is in the New Testament.”
Jesus comment was, as was many of his statements, pulled directly from the OT. He was quoting old testament scripture. He did that each time with a specific purpose in mind. And each time it gave additional context to aid in understanding his point.
Regarding the refernce to Revelation, below is the text from one of my links. Again, there is no need for me to add anything to this right now:
Regarding REVELATION 14:11—
“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name” (Rev. 14:11).
This verse creates some questions in my mind. At first glance, it seems to say exactly what most Christians believe: that the wicked will be tormented without end in Hell.
I’ve heard the well-known conditionalist author Dr. Edward Fudge’s explanation of this verse. He claims that “smoke of their torment” implies complete and total destruction like smoke from the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah. He also says that “they have no rest day or night” is indicative of the ceaseless nature that their punishment will take on for the time that they are punished (not necessarily forever). In other words, while they are being punished, they will not get intervals of rest like we all enjoy here on earth (even when you work all day, you still get to sleep at night). Instead, they will have no rest during this time, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that it will last forever.
But there is another explanation that i find to be more convincing than that of Dr. Fudge. To understand this argument, we’ll need get a little bit of context by looking at the two verses leading up to verse 11.
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” (Rev. 14:9-11, emphasis mine).
A Christian conditionalist named Scott McAliley read my article and pointed out to me that “to believe(as many do) that this is a figurative reference to everyone who failed to put their trust in God is to deny the plain language of Scripture that tells us that this is specifically a judgment on those who took the mark of the beast and worshipped him.” Indeed, this detail is frequently overlooked by traditionalists and conditionalists alike.
Furthermore, the verses clearly state this will take place “in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.” If nothing else, this should be enough to prove that this penalty is not an unending, conscious, torturing one because observing such a punishment is not the way the angels or the Lamb (Jesus Christ) will choose to spend eternity. So the passage appears to say nothing of hell or eternity at all. Instead, it would indicate that those people who are still alive at Christ’s second coming who have worshipped the Beast and received his mark will be tormented and destroyed, in the presence of Jesus and the angels, by burning sulfur raining down from Heaven.
Now, there will certainly be plenty of people who don’t agree with this or Dr. Fudge’s interpretation of Revelation 14:11. Frankly, one would be hard-pressed to find a book of the Bible with more alternate interpretations than the book of Revelation. Some may insist that the verse seems to indicate the traditional view of Hell and appears to apply to all who die in their sins (not just those who take the mark of the Beast). Yet, does that immediately mean that the traditional view is correct? Does it mean that we should abandon the wealth of Biblical evidence for the annihilationist argument? Certainly not. The reason I say this is that the Bible must be taken on the whole. There are Christian cults all over the world who have come up with ridiculous, pagan beliefs, and every one of them draws support for their convictions from the Holy Scriptures. Like it or not, the Bible can be used to support some of the most unbiblical theology any of us can imagine. Scriptures must be cross-checked against the rest of the Bible for there to be some semblance of unity.
For instance, in Matthew 5:29-30, Jesus himself says, “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you....If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you...” If these verses are taken by themselves, they obviously have the plain meaning that we should be gouging out our own eyeballs and cutting off our hands. The reason why so few Christians accept this most natural interpretation is because it’s absolutely outlandish and runs contrary to the rest of the Bible! We’re made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26), and our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19)! It would be ludicrous to believe that our Heavenly Father truly intends for us to dismember ourselves when we sin. Even if no scriptures could be found to deny the plain meaning of Matt 5:29-30, Christians would still disregard this interpretation on the basis of common sense and their knowledge of the character of God. And they would be right to do so.
So, I’m not about to claim that no support can be found for the eternal torture model of God’s final judgment, but I would definitely say that it stands in fierce conflict with the rest of the Word, with common sense, and with the character of God.
Besides that, the middle of Revelation is perhaps the most bizarre set of chapters in the entire Bible. There is a massive amount of symbolism and a plethora of strange, indiscernible visions that work like scrambled pieces of a puzzle. I would contend that “proof texts” taken from Revelation (especially those middle chapters) should automatically be called into question for this reason. And one more thing: the very book out of which this scripture (14:11) comes also has one of the clearest illustrations of annihilation in Hell in the entire Bible. Rev. 20:14-15 says, “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
Here is a great site containing q&a about the greek and hebrew usage of phrases in the bible as pertaining to the fate of the non-believer.
http://www.helltruth.com/q-a.aspx
You said, “Other than God....and those who are in hell right now....”. I see that the Bible in Rev. 20:15 says that people are thrown into hell AFTER the judgment before God; which has not happened yet (hades is not hell, it is the grave). Where do you get that people are in hell now?
Sorry Cuban Leaf, this was for the original posted.
You said, “Other than God....and those who are in hell right now....”. I see that the Bible in Rev. 20:15 says that people are thrown into hell AFTER the judgment before God; which has not happened yet (hades is not hell, it is the grave). Where do you get that people are in hell now?
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