Posted on 12/25/2012 7:59:39 AM PST by SeekAndFind
The last thing any of us want to think about is eternal torment. And yet there we find it....smack dab in the middle of God's Word, and regularly mentioned by the very One who suffered on the cross for our sins. As much as we would like to ignore it completely....or pretend it doesn't exist....we find ourselves compelled to honestly accept everything God has placed in His Word....even when it has such extreme consequences.
Nothing could be further from our natural way of thinking than the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell....and the Son of God suffering on a cross....and a land of inexpressible joy as the alternative to eternal torment. Who could come up with this stuff? That is, if it wasn't true.
Oh wait. I forgot. God and his eternal declarations will only be fulfilled if we understand them....and if we give the go ahead....and if we find them acceptable. It all boils down to our approval, right? We are the masters of the universe....and the ones who get to call the shots on eternity. Yea right.
Speaking of "right," N.T. Wright was an Anglican bishop in the Church of England from 2003 until his retirement in 2010. In recent years, he has written some questionable opinions and made some provocative statements concerning heaven and hell. Wright is very direct when talking about the resurrection of the body....especially for those who will spend all of eternity with Christ. But he becomes quite vague when asked about hell. He tends to view hell more as a "progressive shrinking of human life" in this world, rather than as a literal "lake of fire" in the next world. (see Rev. 20:14,15)
Wright doesn't, however, completely rule out any judgment in the next life for some people. In an interview a few years ago he stated, "My description is neither an annihilationist view nor an eternal conscious torment view." And so he lands somewhere in the middle. He has adopted a theory that makes sense to him. Frankly, I don't think any definition of hell makes much sense when funneled through our human reason. Other than God....and those who are in hell right now....who can truly grasp the reasoning behind the doctrine of hell?
N.T. Wright has asked on various occasions, "Why are Americans so fixated on hell?" On a subject of this magnitude, he is asking the wrong question. The question he should be asking is simply, "Why did Jesus talk so much about hell?" And why did our Lord spend more time talking about that subject than most Americans ever talk about it? (see Matt. 5:22; Matt. 5:29,30; Matt. 7:13,14; Matt. 8:12; Matt. 10:28; Matt. 11:23,24; Matt. 13:49,50; Matt. 16:18; Matt. 18:8,9; Matt. 18:34,35; Matt. 22:13; Matt. 23:15,33; Matt. 25:30; Matt. 25:41; Matt. 25:46; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 10:15; Luke 12:5; Luke 16:22-24)
Jesus talked about many things, and hell is just one of the topics he discussed. But when he addressed it, he gave us a glimpse behind the veil. Hell is so horrible that our words and thoughts can barely begin to express the torment which takes place there. It is the second toughest thing that Spirit-filled Christians think about, or talk about....the toughest thing is the painful ordeal which our Lord suffered on the day of His crucifixion. Let's face it. God hates sin a lot more than you or I do.....and He punishes it far more severely than you or I would punish it. The cross proves it. And so does the reality of hell, which by the way, was originally prepared for the devil and his angels. (see Matt. 25:41) It's above our pay grade to fully comprehend it, but that doesn't make hell any less real. When you interpret the Bible with honesty and integrity, you end up with both heaven and hell....sin and grace....law and gospel....forgiveness and punishment....eternal joy and eternal torment.
N.T. Wright has said that Americans seem "really determined to be sure that they know precisely who is going to be frying in hell and what the temperature will be and so on." Really? Not in my experience. Wright's comment speaks volumes concerning the cavalier manner in which he tends to address this somber issue. I wonder how many Christians he hangs around who are filled with compassion for anyone who is on the highway to hell.
The Lord has provided a way for man to escape hell and make it into heaven. But there is only one way. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) Just as there was only one door on the ark of Noah at the time of the great flood, so also, there is only one door that leads to heaven. Jesus said, "I am the door. Whoever enters through me will be saved." (John 10:9)
The Bible reveals to us that God wants people on the road to heaven rather than the road to hell. "God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4) "The Lord is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) "God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
Just as God's punishment is far greater than we would ever hand out, so also His love is far greater than we would ever demonstrate. And yet amazingly, we often speak and act as if heaven and hell should make sense to us....being the all-wise ones that we pretend to be. When we attempt to pontificate on heaven and hell using our own wisdom, we don't have a clue what we are really talking about.
And then there are the Lord's words on the matter. Jesus is God. He knows everything. He chose to give man serious warnings about the reality of hell....and the eternal nature of it. Many Christians in America rightly believe His words about both heaven and hell. That doesn't mean most Christians in America are glad about it….and rejoice in it. That is unthinkable. Again I must ask, "Who has N.T. Wright been hanging around?" It sounds like he needs to get out more….and meet plenty of Spirit-filled believers who shudder at the thought of people suffering in hell.
N.T. Wright seems to pick out the parts of the Bible he likes....and he trusts that those things will come to pass. But when it comes to hell, he takes the easy way out....and the dangerous way. He relies upon his human reason rather than the words of the King. Will he eventually attempt to alter the "eternal" aspect of heaven as well? I guess he could just publish his own version of the Bible (the "Wright" Bible) and define heaven and hell according to his own preferences and opinions. But don't tamper with God's Word and attempt to pass it off as anything more than wishful thinking. The clear teaching of the New Testament....and the clear teaching of Christ Himself....is that the Son of God suffered for awhile, in order to rescue men from suffering forever.
If that were not actually the case, would Jesus have left heaven and come here to suffer the way He did? No. The truth is that Christ's suffering points as much to the reality of hell as it does to the reality of heaven. If you take N.T. Wright's comments a step further, perhaps Christians in America spend too much time thinking and talking about the suffering of Christ on the cross.
Wright's opinion concerning eternal torment seems to me to be the equivalent of saying, "Jesus Christ may not have actually suffered that much physical torment for that long on the cross."
You see my point. It is futile to live in a fantasy world where we pick and choose those parts of the Bible that are pleasing to us. The words of our Lord are either entirely true, or entirely false. When you tamper with God's inerrant Word and call the "hard stuff" into question, you are being misled....and you are also misleading others on those difficult doctrines. So let's see....N.T. Wright seems convinced that when our Lord referred to "everlasting life" for believers, He meant forever. But when he talked about hell, He didn't really mean what he said about it being a place of eternal torment. So did the Holy Spirit teach that progressive interpretation to this former bishop, or was it simply wishful thinking on the part of this biblical theorist from Scotland?
If I could snap my fingers and make N.T. Wright's version of hell become the real one, I would do it. Who wouldn't, in our natural understanding, desire less punishment for sinners rather than more punishment? But is it up to us? Did we create the world....and man....and give him boundaries not to cross? Is it up to us to hand out the punishment to lawbreakers....and the free gift of eternal life to sinners who repent and believe the good news? All of this is beyond us, and outside of our human understanding. Apart from biblical revelation, who knows anything about heaven and hell?
Oh but man assumes that he does. We are so smart. After all, we made it to the moon....and we created computers....so why wouldn't we know what we are talking about when it comes to eternal joy in heaven....wherever that is....and eternal torment (or not) in hell....wherever that is. Yea....we got this one nailed, just like everything else we have discovered through scientific research and development. Yea right. If that's what you want to tell yourself, I suppose you will just keep on believing it. Not me.
If Jesus was telling the truth about eternal torment for those who reject Him, then N.T. Wright is wrong to cast aspersions upon our Lord's words regarding eternal punishment. They can't both be right. So was Jesus telling the truth, or wasn't He?
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Dan Delzell is the pastor of Wellspring Lutheran Church in Papillion, Neb. He is a regular contributor to The Christian Post.
John 3:16 is pretty clear. Some go to everlasting life which is, well, everlasting. The rest go to destruction which is, well, permanent. And there is no life outside the presence of God. Death means death. The bible is pretty clear about those who die without Christ. Death and sestruction. And they STAY dead for all eternity.
I’ve had people argue that since death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire that oblivion is the ultimate fate of unrepentant sinners, that there is a finality to the torment that ends in destruction, rather than torment that is eternal.
Anyone want to take that on and refute it? There is at least some scriptural support for such a belief, seemingly out of context is my reaction.
Ultimately, God saves as a personal, sovereign act of his own goodness, yet while perfectly respecting our freedom. If he chooses to save some we see as ignorant of the truth about him, that is his choice, not ours. See Mt 20:15.
I think the bottom line regarding all of this is in this scripture:
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
However, since first reading about the arguments between annihilation and etternal suffering here on a freerepublic thread, I’ve found some much more in depth discussions. This is one of my new favorites:
“Hell is a lie, part I”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDOZ1JxtHT4
Another good one:
Hell Is Not Eternal pt 1 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg1jC4qFJ3Q&playnext=1&list=PL34CC1F1FEB8BBB99&feature=results_main
There are some amazingly subtle but clear points made by both sources. As well as the negative impact the teaching of the turn or burn message hurts the message of salvation.
The KJV is the only version which translates 2Thess1:9 in such a way that it doesn’t contradict Rev14:10 which concludes “...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb:” His presence and the glory of his power are the SOURCE of the destruction.
Greek and English preposition “from” does not necessarily imply separation, but can also mean source. The other tanslations with few exceptions add words and radically change the meaning, creating a logical impossibility—one is in the precence of the Lamb, or not. Both cannot be true.
The only way to be saved from God’s eternal wrath is to believe on the
Lord Jesus Christ, trusting in his finished work to utterly save. Trusting in ones own righteousness (dead works) for the forgiveness of sin leads to eternal destruction.
And lots of discussion of the subject here for those interested in researching this:
Thanks for your pings. Jesus used the word Gehenna, which was the trash pit where unwanted children were burned, when he was speaking of sexual lust (Mt 5, Mk 9). He was speaking of separation from God when he spoke of the outer darkness where men weep and gnash their teeth (Mt 8:12, 22:13).
BFRL. Looks like a great article, read half - need sleep.
Is that why he is called a “Loving” God? Because he wants to condemn his children to eternal torment for being like he created them?
Scripture says in two different places that God wants all to be saved, so I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that He wants even one person in “eternal torment”. Sadly and reluctantly permits it, yes. Wants it, absolutely not.
And the interesting thing about Revelation 14:10 is that it is not talking about all humans that are not saved by grace. Rather, it is very specific about who it is talking about. That scripture doesn’t even belong in this discussion. It stands alone about a specific event and individuals.
There are LOTS of places in the bible that discuss the future of those who die without Grace. And repeatedly they use words that translate, in English, to words like “death, destruction, perish”. And yes, it WILL be eternal. They are not coming back.
—Sadly and reluctantly permits it, yes. Wants it, absolutely not.—
Permits it? He created it. And it is the default. That is, when God creates a person, odds are that is where they are going.
The teaching of eternal suffering is the main reason it is so difficult to proselytize non-believers. We are made in God’s image. Jesus spoke in plain words. When we read of eternal suffering for those who may never have heard His word, our “God’s image” side has a hard time seeing that as love for those he created. It actually sounds more like sadism. Who wants to follow such a God except out of deep fear.
What a way to live. And the whole message of Christ was to come to him out of love, thanksgiving, etc. Not out of fear of “getting it” if you don’t. That is a Muslim thing.
Is that why he is called a “Loving” God? Because he wants to condemn his children to eternal torment for being like he created them?
You have nailed the evil of the eternal suffering interpretation. It’s the brick wall you run up against when attempting to share the good news with non believers in a culture where people are at least somewhat familiar with scripture. They have no time for a “god” that will mete out a punishment infinitely beyond your wildest imaginings just for not believing a 2,000 year old book.
However, they WILL hear the good news when you explain that the alternative is to live out your “natural man” life and then be body dies, and then the soul dies in the second death. The “good news” is then seen as “something more”, “something born out of love” to save you from eternal death. The person now is free to choose what a loving God offers him rather than just “come to our side or else”.
The latter is not sincere.
So what is the 'second death' as you understand it - eternal torment or eternal oblivion?
How is that different from 'choose our side or else'?
It is talking about unsaved, unbelieving who take the mark of the beast. All of these are on the fast track to hell. There is no hope of salvation for them. Here, let me share the verse, so that it is obvious:
9* And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10* The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Revelation 14:9,10)
The Bible says "any man" who worships the beast. Of course it has direct bearing on this discussion, since these will surely suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire. This is contrasted with those who do NOT take the mark of beast, who overcome:
4* And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Those who worship the beast and receive his mark will suffer eternal torment and destruction in the lake of fire. But all whose name is not found written in the book of life (the unbelieving) will wind up on the lake of fire:
7* He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8* But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7,8)
He that overcometh (those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, see 1 John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.") will not spend eternity in the lake of fire. All else will.
This is what the Bible teaches. Men teach something different.
So what is the ‘second death’ as you understand it - eternal torment or eternal oblivion?
How is that different from ‘choose our side or else’?
Well, “or else” means, with the “annihilation” doctrine, that they live their life, eat and drink, and enjoy the fruits of their labor, and then they die like animals. They are destroyed as in the wheat vs tares parable. This applies even if you had never heard of Christ. You were not “chosen” by him, so your natural man lives and dies and that’s it. Just like your pet.
“Or else” in the “eternal torment” version means if you do not accept Christ, even if you were never properly ministered to, you will suffer for days and nights without end in a way you could not even imagine - and in ways the worst of the evil men ever to live - by God himself.
The latter is one of the main stumbling blocks of trying to bring people into the fold who are in Christian nations where the churches teach this. And rightly so because it is the default. That is, God created man, for the most part, to torture for all eternity. Only the few he chooses escape. They do not see this god as a loving god. I use lower case on purpose because I don’t either. It is not the personality of the God of the bible. This God destroys the evil and the unsaved. He doesn’t get His jollies watching them suffer at His leisure. It is not the point. The point is salvation. And salvation from permanent death/destruction/perish and the other similar words that Jesus uses.
Yes. Jesus.
A really good study here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5oCcGDvaxE
Or you can read another excellent breakdown here:
http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
And don’t forget Lazarus and the rich man:
http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html
And one of the older rundowns:
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm
But a loving god
So what is the ‘second death’ as you understand it - eternal torment or eternal oblivion?
The rest go to eternal life. Those two words have specific meaning and neither applies to those who go to destruction.
I disagree. See the links in my posts. I need not re-invent the wheel here.
It is actually ALL covered there - every scripture you mentioned that talks of the fate of the unsaved - and their context and meaning.
The Bible is easily understood. Eternal torment, eternal destruction are ETERNAL and Jesus warns the “worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mark 9:44, 9:6, 9:48).
At the great white throne of judgement (Revelation 20:11ff) the dead who have been suffering in hell, some for thousands of years, will be resurrected unto damnation (Daniel 12:2, John 5:29). They’ve been suffering continuous torment like Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) only to be resurrected to stand before God and condemned and cast into the lake of fire where to their abject horror they discover that their suffering isn’t over, but will go on FOREVER. God is perfectly just in sending them.
Eternal destruction is not annihilation. It is a destruction that never ends. It is eternal where “the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
He wants it because He permits it and could prevent it. Evil only happens because He allows it to happen. He is supposed to be all-powerful yet he permits sickness, agony, death, heartbreak, wars, atrocities, etc.
He created Hell so that he would have a place for eternal torment, which seems to turn Him on. And did this knowing (because He is all-knowing) that the imperfect creatures He created would end up there.
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